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What the hell are you talking about? If anything, this story shows that evolutionists (ONCE AGAIN) test their theories, publish them in peer reviewed journals, and are subject to questions and more testing! That would make them the opposite of "sheeple."

Unlike your (I'm supposing here, but fairly so) childish creationism fairy tale which has yet to have a single theory tested, published in a peer review journal, or subjected to questions or more testing.

this "debate" is an embarrassment to me as a conservative American. I'd like to know when being a Conservative meant abandoning science. Ugh.

sorry for my anger, but these threads always fire me up.

"Unlike your (I'm supposing here, but fairly so) childish creationism fairy tale which has yet to have a single theory tested,.."

There is alot of science that backs up what the bible says, uless you asume some things in the bible are false and some true. I think the bible has been consistently prooven to be true form a historical perspective, so why would the authors of the bible make up the story of creation?

Believing that an intelligent creator whose existence transcends our own, rather than man being the end-all, be-all of intelligent life, does not, as you accuse, mean abandoning science. It does, however, prompt one to require a certain degree of humility on the part of scientists. Some of us laugh to see evolutionists turning themselves into pretzels rather than acknowledge the possibility of God's existence. They'd rather indulge in a stack of massive presuppositions (a violation of scientific and philosophical principles) and do end runs around the multiple contradictions presented by macro-evolutionary theory so as to preserve their "holier"-and-smarter-than-thou egos.

Your quote - "Unlike your (I'm supposing here, but fairly so) childish creationism fairy tale which has yet to have a single theory tested, published in a peer review journal, or subjected to questions or more testing." /unquote

Here is some published evidence and documentation for the creationism "fairy tale" side that you say does not exist.

Take a look.

EVIDENCE FOR CREATION

1. The Fossil Record...Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of "primitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today. Yet, "since only a
small percentage of the earth's surface obeys even a portion of the geologic column the claim of their having taken place to form a continuum of rock/life/time over the earth is therefore a fantastic and imaginative
contrivance.1" "[T]he lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled."2 This supposed column is actually saturated with
"polystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame. "[T]o the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." 3

2. Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829
have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago
would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few
thousand of years.

3. The Global Flood... The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 M.E. Clark and
Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent. 6 Secular scholars report very rapid sedimentation and periods of great carbonate
deposition in earth's sedimentary layers..7 It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.8

4. Population Statistics...World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease,
famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago)
would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a
total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

5. Radio Halos...Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such
short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

6. Human Artifacts throughout the Geologic Column...Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in
Cretaceous rock – point to the fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past.11

7. Helium Content in Earth's Atmosphere... Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our
atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12

8. Expansion of Space Fabric...Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data.13 The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator14. Astrophysicist Russell
Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.

9. Design in Living Systems...A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins
of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17

10. Design in the Human Brain...The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe.18 It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells.19
This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of
the human brain. 20 In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans - all without knowing they are doing so.21

1Woodmorappe, John, "The Essential Non-Existence of the Evolutionary Uniformitarian Geologic Column: A Quantitative Assessment," Creation Research Society Quarterly, vol. 18, no.1 (Terre Haute, Indiana, June 1981),pp.
46-71

2 Nilsson, N. Heribert, as quoted in Arthur C. Custance, The Earth Before Man, Part II, Doorway Papers, no. 20 (Ontario, Canada: Doorway Publications), p. 51

3Corner, E.J.H., Contemporary Botanical Thought, ed. A.M. MacLeod and L.S. Cobley (Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961), p. 97

4Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)

5Blick, Edward, A Scientific Analysis of Genesis (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1991) p. 103

6Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., "Fluid Mechanic Examination of the Tial Mechanism for Producing Mega-Sedimantary Layering" (Third International Conference on Creation, Pittsburg, July 1994)

7Ager, Derek, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record (New York: John Wiley and Sons) p. 43 and p. 86

8West, John Anthony, Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt (New York: Julian Press, 1987) pp. 13-14

9 See Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, CA: Master Books)

10Gentry, Robert, Creation's Tiny Mystery (Knoxville, Tenn.: Earth Science Assoc.,1988)

11 Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)

12Cook, Melvin, "Where is The Earth's Radiogenic Helium?" Nature, Vol. 179, p. 213

13Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166

14Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22

15Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994)

16Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Maryland: Adler & Adler, 1986) p. 263

17 Mastropaolo, Joseph, "Evolution Is Biologically Impossible," Impact # 317 (El Cajon, CA: Institute For Creation Research,1999) p. 4

18Restak, Richard, The Brain: The Last Frontier, 1979, p. 390

19The Brain, Our Universe Within, PBS Video

20Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Video Series

21Weiss, Joseph, "Unconscious Mental Functioning," Scientific American, March 1990, p. 103

Sorry. Wasn't ignoring you. Was in a mtg.

What the hell are you talking about? If anything, this story shows that evolutionists (ONCE AGAIN) test their theories, publish them in peer reviewed journals, and are subject to questions and more testing! That would make them the opposite of "sheeple."

I should have clarified. I really was referring to pro-evolution science writers in the popular press, who may not even have the background to know what they're talking about. They made this "discovery" out to be some kind of quantum leap in science (look at some of the headlines and descriptions they used). Also they imply that non-believers in evolution are once again shown to be fools because "yet another" human ancestor has been found to drive the final nail in the creationist coffin. And of course all the other pro-evolution sheeple on FR climb on the same bandwagon.

The "sheeple" don't wait to see if this really is the holy grail of hominids, they just proclaim it, because a scientist (ooohh!) says it's true. Like many pointed out yesterday, when a guy says "I knew I was going to find it (a major hominid fossil), and I did!" the guy's judgement is already suspect. I think it is reasonable to believe the French scientist who is actually an expert on gorillas, rather that the Donald-Johannson- wannabe who found and has the adacity to give it a name already-before "peer review."

Unlike your (I'm supposing here, but fairly so) childish creationism fairy tale which has yet to have a single theory tested, published in a peer review journal, or subjected to questions or more testing.

Ooh. Name calling. Are you a Democrat?

this "debate" is an embarrassment to me as a conservative American. I'd like to know when being a Conservative meant abandoning science. Ugh.

If you're going to be embarassed, fine. But don't be embarrassed about this "debate." Our side is right on this one, even though you may not be knowledgeable enough to understand it. It is very typical for a major "missing link" to be discovered, anointed by science, and broadcast to the sheeple of the world, then withdrawn (usually quietly) months or years later.

Specifically Sivapithicus was put forward as a human ancestor about 20 years ago, and creationists said that it was very similar to an orangutan. Of course the Creationists were ridiculed. Just over a year later, a more complete Siva was found and the discoverer had to admit that it was nearly identical to Ramapithicus, an extinct species of orangutan. It was officially withdrawn as hominid. Look it up.

I could easily list dozens of these: a fossil was promoted by an anthropolgist (Tim White, I believe) as an ancient hominid clavicle, for about a year until a cetologist proved it was a dolphin's rib. National Geographic published a major story (I think a cover story) with pictures and artist's renderings of a primitive bird with a dinosaur's tail. Creationists were befuddled. This would have been very strong evidence for evolution, and would be hard to explain. A couple of months later in the back of the magazine, NG printed a retraction. Turns out, they had acquired the fossil from a Chinese fossil merchant who had glued a lizard's tail to bird's rear end, and said it was single specimen. NG even admitted they had fallen for an obvious fake. But the discovery seemed so significant they got carried away. This story was on the front page of USA Today about a year ago.

sorry for my anger, but these threads always fire me up.

Me, too.