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Hydrogen fuel cells and polution.
New York Times ^ | 2/2/2003 | Ryan Lizza

Posted on 02/02/2003 7:29:18 AM PST by Dutch Boy

NYT Snippit....

96 % of the hydrogen produced today is created from fossil fuels, natural gas, oil and coal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/weekinreview/02LIZZ.html

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energylist; enviralists; fuelcell; polution
Seems like the enviros may have overlooked this point.
1 posted on 02/02/2003 7:29:18 AM PST by Dutch Boy
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To: Dutch Boy
Hydrogen isn't so much a fuel as it is an energy STORAGE medium. There's still no magic way to get the energy in the first place.
2 posted on 02/02/2003 7:38:00 AM PST by DManA
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To: Dutch Boy
Well, no kidding. I don't know of any natural resevoirs of hydrogen on earth. It's too light to be retained in our atmosphere. So we have to produce it from compounds, water being the most prominent example. That takes... wait for it.. energy.
3 posted on 02/02/2003 7:43:21 AM PST by Timm
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To: DManA
Hydrogen is a way to transfer pollution from the densely-populated "blue zones" where enviros tend to congregate and comnmute like anyone else, to the sparser red zones where the power plants would produce hydrogen for them.

See their logic?
4 posted on 02/02/2003 7:43:58 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Dutch Boy
96 % of the hydrogen produced today is created from fossil fuels, natural gas, oil and coal.

They say this as if it's a bad thing ... yet their type is responsible for the lack of widespread nuclear power, which is g-g-g-global-warming-free. Some countries in western Europe are more than 50% nuclear, and without any Chernobyl-type mishaps. Here, the radical left prevents that, despite the environmental damage they allege from fossil fuels.

5 posted on 02/02/2003 7:46:55 AM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
Here, the radical left prevents that, despite the environmental damage they allege from fossil fuels.

Environmentalism is only defined by their narrow agenda.

6 posted on 02/02/2003 7:50:56 AM PST by alaskanfan
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To: DManA
Hydrogen isn't so much a fuel as it is an energy STORAGE medium

So which fuel isn't an energy storage medium?

7 posted on 02/02/2003 7:58:18 AM PST by templar
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To: coloradan
Here, the radical left prevents that, despite the environmental damage they allege from fossil fuels.

They also prevent development of our domestic fossil fuel resources. Then they complain about our involvement in the mideast and blame it on big oil greed.

You're right, nuclear is the only future we have if we are to look forward to continuing prosperity and national independence.

8 posted on 02/02/2003 8:03:24 AM PST by templar
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To: Dutch Boy
"96 % of the hydrogen produced today is created from fossil fuels, natural gas, oil and coal."

The idea is to invest in NEW WAYS to extract hydrogen, from such sources as water. Remember, water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. By removing the two parts of hydrogen, the leftover product would be pure oxygen, right? In a closed environment, this should pose no hazard to our atmosphere or forests, should it?

9 posted on 02/02/2003 8:21:54 AM PST by TommyDale
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To: *Enviralists; *Energy_List
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
10 posted on 02/02/2003 8:34:40 AM PST by Free the USA (Stooge for the Rich)
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To: TommyDale
So, how are you going to do it? If you are going to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in molecules of water, you're going to have to use a lot of energy. Unless you're using solar or nuclear power, you're likely going to be burning fossil fuels to get the required energy. Even electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels at most power plants. Plus, I believe I've read that more energy would be needed to generate pure hydrogen from water than would be output from a hydrogen fuel cell.

The benefit of using hydrogen fuel cells is not that net air pollution is reduced. Rather, it's that the pollutants are redistributed from densely populated areas to sparsely populated areas. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's being overlooked.

Maybe someday we'll be able to generate an abundant supply of hydrogen with no pollution. But that's still many years away.

11 posted on 02/02/2003 9:50:17 AM PST by kwyjibo
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To: kwyjibo
"Maybe someday we'll be able to generate an abundant supply of hydrogen with no pollution. But that's still many years away."

I think that is the whole point of spending billions -- to FIND alternative methods, not just to convert automobiles.

12 posted on 02/02/2003 10:01:48 AM PST by TommyDale
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To: TommyDale
The idea is to invest in NEW WAYS to extract hydrogen, from such sources as water.

There are many ways to skin a cat,
but none of them can circumvent the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

13 posted on 02/02/2003 10:07:34 AM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: templar
I think of fossil fuels - oil, gas, and coal - as "God's battery," energy stored by nature at a different time and place that we find, collect, process, and use. You might also consider nuclear (fission) power to be a natural "Uranium battery" that we are using the same way as fossil fuels. We have a lot of fuel-grade Uranium, and a lot of bomb-grade Uranium that could be diluted down to fuel grade as well. In addition, breeder reactors can produce Plutonium, which is also a nuclear fuel, if we ever decide to extract and use it.

Hydrogen is more of an energy vector than an energy storage system, since it would only store energy for a short time, unlike the natural energy sinks from times long past. And of course, all of the energy that it could provide would have to come from the manufacturing process instead of being residual.

Fusion power, if we ever get it working, would actually be a new energy source here on earth. But not completely new, if you consider the solar-power source of all that fossil energy.

14 posted on 02/02/2003 11:09:59 AM PST by MainFrame65
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To: TommyDale
"The idea is to invest in NEW WAYS to extract hydrogen, from such sources as water. Remember, water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. By removing the two parts of hydrogen, the leftover product would be pure oxygen, right? In a closed environment, this should pose no hazard to our atmosphere or forests, should it?"

With sufficient nuclear power this would not be a problem. Water has a "heat of formation" of 68,000 calories per mole. An electrolysis machine has to pump in lots of power per pound of H2 made by electrolysis. Electrolyzers are typically only 70% efficient. Possibly ion-exchange devices are more efficient but you will have to pay the cost of breaking that strong chemical bond.

Water is "hydrogen ash"--literally the ashes left after combusting H2 with oxygen, and it is hard to "unburn" it.

--Boris

15 posted on 02/02/2003 11:35:07 AM PST by boris
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To: templar
"So which fuel isn't an energy storage medium?"

Well, solar (I know) and hydroelectric (all fully exploited) might qualify; as might wind. Arguable.

But notice that all dense/highly-intense fuels are indeed energy storage media.

I suppose you could argue that nuclear isn't...in the traditional sense of "storage". The energy was put there by God a long time ago.

Maybe the zero-point vacuum energy (Casimir Effect) would qualify...

And then there is antimatter...

--Boris

16 posted on 02/02/2003 11:37:43 AM PST by boris
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To: Timm
"water being the most prominent example"

The extraction of Hydrogen from water requires to much energy to be of practical value without the development of new electrical power generating sources. Some of this may come from solar farms but for any useable quantity to be produced the power will be generated by Nuclear.

That is far down the road. Phase one of the Hydrogen plan will have almost all of it extracted from, you guessed it, Hydrocarbons. The residual carbon is increasingly being used as a high tech material for items such as aircraft disk brakes. Other uses for the left over carbon are still in the lab such as carbon nano tube materials.

Picture pyrolizing (burning without air) Hydrocarbons on a massive scale to extract the Hydrogen. Pitch is used for this now but eventually the process may be adapted to coal.

17 posted on 02/02/2003 12:06:16 PM PST by SSN558
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To: Timm
Current fuel cell research consists of reforming natural gas or diesel oil into hydrogen gas that reacts with oxygen in a fuel cell to form water and energy (or electricity)

You may be right it would require too much energy to get hydrogen from water--to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then react hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell to form energy and water probably is not economical (your going in circles if you do it this way)

Can't remember if splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen requires more energy than reacting hydrogen and oxygen to form water and release energy.
However using exsisting fuels to supply the hydrogen and increasing the efficiency of the fuel cell reaction, creates economies that are more competitive. Captial costs of fuel cell equipment is the big hurdle right now. Once enough fuel cells are in service more efficient cheaper ways of suppplying hydrogen for the fuel cells may become available.

18 posted on 02/02/2003 12:12:09 PM PST by Boxsford
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To: Boxsford
...it would require too much energy to get hydrogen from water--to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then react hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell to form energy and water probably is not economical (your going in circles if you do it this way)

This is a single reaction, in opposite directions. And the reduction of water to hydrogen and oxygen takes considerably more energy than can be extracted by recombination. The principle is called entropy, and can be described as "you can't win, you lose whenever you play, and you can't stop playing".

However using exsisting fuels to supply the hydrogen and increasing the efficiency of the fuel cell reaction, creates economies that are more competitive. Capital costs of fuel cell equipment is the big hurdle right now. Once enough fuel cells are in service more efficient cheaper ways of suppplying hydrogen for the fuel cells may become available.

Not really. A large part - for some, most or all - of the energy in fossil fuels comes from the oxidation of the carbon content to carbon dioxide. Any system that discards that energy, such as reforming hydrocarbons to extract the hydrogen, and only using it for energy, is inherently inefficient. If you are interested, check out some alternative systems for hydrogen storage. Hydrogen gas can be stored in a tank filled with a metal hydride matrix, or it can be stored chemically as sodium hydride or sodium borohydride. Check these links:

http://www.millenniumcell.com/solutions/white_hydrogen.html

http://www.powerball.net/concept/index.shtml

19 posted on 02/02/2003 12:34:33 PM PST by MainFrame65
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