Judge Limits Navy Sonar Experiments

Los Angeles Times ^ | 8/26/2003 | Kenneth R. Weiss

[hchutch]

A federal judge in San Francisco on Tuesday prohibited the Navy from testing a powerful sonar system in most parts of the world's oceans, ruling that the booming sounds to detect enemy submarines could "irreparably harm" whales, dolphins and fish.

U.S. District Judge Elizabeth D. Laporte ruled that the Navy and the National Marine Fisheries Service failed to consider alternatives that could shield whales and other marine life from these loud sounds, which some acousticians compare to standing next to the space shuttle at takeoff.

She ordered military and federal regulators to meet with environmental lawyers and their scientific experts to outline areas of the Pacific Ocean where the Navy can safely test the system. She recommended that the Navy give wide berth to coastal waters with abundant sea life as well as steer clear of corridors used by migrating whales and areas where they congregate.

[Tallguy]

("Crimson Tide" was a) Terribly inacurate protrayal of the Navy in general and the submarine service in particular. The whole movie was a steaming pile of dung.

Don't worry. I take any Hollywood portrayal with a grain of salt. Besides this was a Bruckheimer/Simpson movie -- same guys that made "Days of Thunder" which was about NASCAR. Like those drivers really bump 'n grind like that at 180 mph!

But you're right, this kind of distortion gets throught to the public every day in a hundred different ways. It only becomes apparent when it happens on a topic where we have a certain amount of "individual expertise." Should give you pause on those areas where we lack said "expertise."

[hchutch]

1) I expect the Navy to be biased in favor of bringing the sailors and ships it is responsible for home safe and sound from combat experience. If you can avoid hurting whales, fine. If it's a choice between losing a ship or having some whales buy it - well, too bad for the whales, but our sailors and ships have to have top priority.

2) The response to the restrictions is simple: You fight the way you train. Unless you can guarantee that the PRC will fight us in the exact conditions produced by these restrictions, then you really need to get out of the Navy's way on this.

[WestPacSailor]

You fight the way you train.

ABSOLUTELY! I guarantee they aren't concerned about whales when it comes to training to fight us. If you can train without hurting whales and fish...great. If not, then you have to decide which is more important, defeating the threat to our existence, or saving a few whales.

I think that all but the most ardent granola munchers will side with the defense of our country.

[Tallguy]

As for tracking the Korean or Chinese boats, anybody with a soup can to press up against the hull will hear these boats coming before they even leave the pier.

OK. But that is with the current generation diesel-electric boats. What seems to be keeping the submarine community awake at night is these newer designs for closed-circuit propulsion systems that Germany is shopping. The Navy appears to think that these small boats will just sit quietly on the bottom and wait for one of our nuke boats to pass by. Given that the usual passive means of detection might not work, it seems reasonable to expect that they get a very good active sonar system to be able to counter this threat.

If I'm off-base on this, can you tell me why?

[dogbrain]

index for later read...

[hchutch]

FYI ping.

[mhking]

Kind of like that idiot naked painted woman in a cage last week, huh?

Just damn.

If you want on the new list, FReepmail me. This IS a high-volume PING list...

[Libertarianize the GOP]

ping

[xrp]

We're gonna lose lives on this one. Mark my words.

To Al-Qaeda's vast naval submarine force?

[Ff--150]

I was Navy Aircrew myself, but the point is that as a JUDGE she is within her rights for she is HONORED and our declarations of what she can or cannot do are moot...

[montag813]

A federal judge in San Francisco on Tuesday prohibited the Navy from testing a powerful sonar system in most parts of the world's oceans, ruling that the booming sounds to detect enemy submarines could "irreparably harm" whales, dolphins and fish.

Can this Judge be impeached for jeopardizing national security? I believe the word is treason. Someone should do a thorough search of her "charity" donations over the past 10 years to see how much went to fronts for E.L.F. such as the Sierra Club, NRDC, Greenpeace and PETA.

[bmwcyle]

The electic non nukes are hard to find but passive methods that the sub use only get better. Save the whales and kill the commies. STS2/ss

[montag813]

I guess now a sub skipper is going to have to "float the buoy" to ask "pretty please, may I turn my active sonar on?"

Revised "Hunt for Red October" dialogue:

CREWMAN: Torpedo locked on us Captain!
CAPTAIN: Deploy countermeasures!!!
EPA INSPECTOR: Belay that order, there are 3 dolphins swimming next to the countermeasures tube!
CAPTAIN: Stand down Ensign, by order of the District Court.
CREWMAN: CAPTAIN!!! We'll be killed!
CAPTAIN: I'm sorry, Ensign, but don't worry, we shall all receive the "Order of GAIA" for this sacrifice.

[xrp]

How is this judge jeopardizing national security?

[aimhigh]

Yet this program has not been cancelled. Why is that?

Perhaps we should follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[King Prout]

BTTT - there are a couple of ex-sonarmen freepers who have addressed this issue. I cannot remember their names, but I'll hunt them up.
They do not favor this sonar system.

[GovernmentShrinker]

One is Long Cut, whose earlier post on this topic I took the liberty of re-posting at #15 above.

[farmfriend]

Interesting how we seem to run a lot of "just damn" and environmental pings on the same thread. Tells you a lot about the eco-nuts that push it.

Rights, farms, environment ping.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.

[July 4th]

Congress needs to get some balls and strip the federal courts of numerous areas of jurisdiction. It's the only way the unelected bench legislators are going to stop making their own law.

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!!