Maybe some protestants are right and there will be a rapture

New Advent ^ | about 180 AD | Irenaeus

[Aliska]

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202) Adversus haereses (inter A.D. 180/199) Book V Chapter 29

All things have been created for the service of man. The deceits, wickedness, and apostate power of Antichrist. This was prefigured at the deluge, as afterwards by the persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons "as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance -- in fact, as nothing;" so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].

Translated by the Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. Excerpted from Volume I of The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors);

[Aliska]

I always thought the rapture before the last tribulation was a heresy. Now I'm not so sure.

I was catching up on posts on usenet and stumbled across a quote from this, so I searched for a source. I found one.

[LiteKeeper]

bump - pre-tribulational rapture believer

[Aliska]

How did you find this article? It scrolled off my screen, and I didn't get any comments. Wasn't sure if I would try to keep it going or not because I figured that it would probably degenerate into another free-for-all if everybody gets in the act.

I decided long ago that the church (= all Christians) would not be caught up until the very end. This little gem makes me rethink the whole thing, and I won't be so dismissive of the pre-tribbers from now on.

Irenaeus may have had this by word of mouth. Of course, the church fathers did differ in different interpretations, but I still think it is much more credible now that I find Irenaeus wrote what he wrote.

[dangus]

I do not think that means what you think that means.

Many within the Catholic Church have prophecized about a terrible conflict at the end of the world, amplifying the Matthean apocalypse and Revelations. The problem is in the notion that the faithful would be swept up *before* the rapture.

This passage states that it is at the *end* that the church is "caught up." It describes straw being used to purify gold. Don't miss this: the gold is purified through fire; it is not spared fire. The ordeals of the end time are presented as a contest, which the church, having overcome (endured, won, succeeded) the contest, is made incorrupt.

Now here's something interesting: the comparison is to the three men in the furnace from the book of Daniel. They were placed in the furnace. They were not rescued from the furnace, but instead endured the flames without harm. Does this mean that Christians are swept away before the apocalypse? That would be inconsistent with the comaprison, for the men *were* placed in the furnace.

Going from this passage alone, there are two probabilities:
1. Christians shall suffer in the apocalypse, but shall be made pure by their sufferings, like Gold is tested in fire.
2. Christians shall witness the apocalypse, but shall be spared suffering.

Did the three men in the furnace experience any suffering? From the Protestant version, it's not all that clear. Probably not; Nothing about them was burned. From the Catholic verses which were removed from the Protestant bible, ironically, it becomes very clear:

"But the angel of the Lord went down into the furnace with Azariah and his companions, drove the fiery flames out from the furnace, and made the inside of the furnace as though a dew-laden breeze was blowing through it. The fire in no way touched them, or caused them pain or harm. Then these three in the furnace with one voice sang, glorifying God:..."

It is then interesting to note that this passage is cited as a foretelling of purgatory by early Christians. There is a fire, here, which purifies the soul from sin. But whereas some, such as St. Louis de Montfort (if I don't mix up my saints) portray this as horrible agony, this passage suggests a painless purification.

(I could suppose the painlessness of the three young men's experience was due to their virtue.)

My best understanding of purgatory is quite childish: Young Eustace Scrubb's being stripped of his dragon skin in C.S. Lewis' third volume of the Chronicles of Narnia, The Voyage of the Dawn-Treader. (Given that Lewis was Anglican, I doubt that was the intent of his passage.) Eustace's experience was very painful, and yet he rejoiced in how wonderful the experience was! If that sounds odd, read the book... it makes beautiful sense, with no masochism.

[dangus]

Thought you guys might be interested in this.

[.45MAN]

Nobody gets out for free.. Only a handful of people are pure and thats the only way anyone will get to heaven, totally clean. We will all be here for the tribulation some will make it and most won't.

Seems to me that God's chosen were and still are the JEWS.

H'm where does that leave the Christians?

[ET(end tyranny)]

First I noticed some variances with the following verses, depending on which bible a person uses.

Luke 17 (KJV)
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The verse in question is 37. I did a search on the word eagles. Got this.

From the Greek
105 aetos ah-et-os'
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

Ok... so why the mention of carrion? So, I checked other bibles.

Luke 17 (NIV)
37"Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

Luke 17 (NASB)
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Luke 17 (AMP)
37Then they asked Him, Where, Lord? He said to them, Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures or eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17 (NLT)
37"Lord, where will this happen?" the disciples asked. Jesus replied, "Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near."[1]
Footnotes
1. 17:37 Greek Wherever the carcass is, the vultures gather.

Luke 17 (WE)
37 They asked him, `Where will this be, Lord?' He said, `The big birds that eat meat will go to the place where the dead body is.'

So, let's look at some parallel verse from Matthew.

Matthew 24 (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It seems that corpse and vultures would be the more proper reading. Notice that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the arrival of Messiah. In days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the arrival of Messiah. The answer given by Yehoshua refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain as the Messiah arrives.

Now, let's look at the tares and wheat:

Matthew 13 (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yehoshua then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice the timing of events described, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of YHWH are still among them.

Now, go back and re-read Luke 17:26-30. Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the arrival of Messiah. They will all perish.

Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Messiah is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and NOT be surprised.

Revelation 16 shows the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and THEN in verse 15-

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Messiah has NOT come yet at the time of the sixth plague! Notice that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

Revelation 16 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

At the time the seventh plague is announcing the time for earth has come to an end, and the arrival of Messiah follows. So, Messiah does not come to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are NOT removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them.

Psalm 91 (KJV)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Proverbs 10:30   The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

From what I read, there is no foundation for a pre-trib rapture or removal of the righteous at all.

[GrandEagle]

I think if you look again at the passage you referred to in 1 Thessalonians you will find that the only thing that it actually says is that the dead in Christ will rise first, before those that are alive at the time. Applying this scripture a "rapture" is starting with a belief and making scripture fit that belief.
Like most Baptists, I at one time believed in a "pretribulation rapture". When I began studing the issue instead of assuming that those who were teaching me had studied it, I found too many things that did not "add up".

I can’t get around Rev. 20:1-6 where, after describing events clearly during and after the 7 year tribulation, God had John write “…this is the first resurrection.” ; then went on in verse 6 to say “blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.…”
Then in Matthew chapter 24, in answer to the question about when will he return, Jesus says in verse 21, “For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world…”
Then in verse 22 “…except those days be shortened, there should be no flesh saved; but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”
Verse 29 says “Immediately after the tribulation of those days…”
Verse 30 says: “And then shall appear the Son of man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Verse 31 says “And he shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Then in I Thessalonians 4:15-16, God had Paul write: “ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: the dead in Christ shall rise first: (vs16) then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. If the first resurrection takes place after the tribulation as stated in Rev. 20:5-6; and The Son of man appears in the Heaven to gather his elect after the great tribulation as stated in Matthew 24:30-31; in light of the dead rising FIRST in I Thessalonians; then you would have to have a resurrection without the dead in Christ rising in order for those who are alive on earth to be “raptured” before the tribulation.

I have exerpted the scriptures in order to be brief. Please look at the entire text in your copy of Gods word.

[Modernman]

The elect are those people whom God chose from before creation to be saved by Jesus Christ.

I've always wondered about this concept and could never buy it- where's the incentive to be a Christian, then?

[onedoug]

Too much concern with the world to come detracts from what is necessary in this life to get there.

[LiteKeeper]

Some additional references:

Is the rapture before or after the seven-year tribulation?

When will the world end? What is the sequence of events?

How many times is Jesus Coming?

How will the Rapture be explained after we are gone

Will there be an opportunity for salvation after the rapture?

Why raise the dead at the rapture is they are already with the Lord?