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The Baptists speak
1 posted on 02/04/2004 9:30:37 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: oldcodger; LiteKeeper; scandalon; Joshua; Jmouse007; SoliDeoGloria; sr4402; nobdysfool; ...
And now the other side of the story
2 posted on 02/04/2004 9:32:28 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
"According to open theists, God is ignorant of future events..."

Would such an impotant god be worthy of worship? is this the god of the Arminians? This theology would be convenient for Antichrist to step into.

3 posted on 02/04/2004 9:46:57 AM PST by editor-surveyor ( . Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
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To: RnMomof7
It was commented last night on the other thread, that God watches over you. But, given this Open Theism view, that reduces Him to a myopic diety who simply gets to be shocked when that home invasion occurs. Imagine the divine counsel about that one:

[Father]: I wish I had seen that one coming.
[Son]: What difference does it make. You couldn't stop it anyway. Remember that "free will" thing?

There is little more comfort for the Arminian who actually does believe in God's Omniscience. You are still left with a God who is impotent to stop what He knows is about to happen. The Lord is then reduced to a grief counselor, who might need therapy Himself for all the trama He knows is coming, watches in horror as it occurs, then must deal with the fact that He is unable to prevent it.

Yet, by the droves, the professing masses fawn to these views. Perhaps, tonight, when they tuck their kids into bed a night, they can tell them a bedtime story about God, that He watches over you, but is prevented from doing anything to stop the bad guy from coming into your house. Perhaps, after a few sleepless nights of vainly trying to comfort their kids, they might rethink their theology.

One might as well advise a friend that if an invasion happens, you should just relax and enjoy the ride. God sees it, but He is unable to help. He will be along after its over and you can have a group therapy session.

How different a picture does the Bible paint. I think this copy of the mail I sent out yesterday to my Bible study group is relevant:

Which have said, With our tongue will we prevail: our lips are our own: who is Lord over us?
(Psa 12:4 GB)

From the wicked let us learn this lesson: Our lips are not our own.

How ironic it is that those who oppose the LORD and presume to speak against Him are bringing forth that which the LORD Himself had ordained for them before they were ever born. The vain imaginations of your heart will bring you to eternal destruction, but, even in your rebellion, your tongue still serves the LORD. Cease striving, vain man. For who has opposed His will?



[How] strange is it that the easy yoke of the Lord should so gall the shoulders of the proud, while the iron bands of Satan they bind about themselves as chains of honour: they boastfully cry unto God, “Who is lord over us?” and hear not the hollow voice of the evil one, who cries from the infernal lake, “I am your Lord, and right faithfully do ye serve me.” Alas, poor fools, their pride and glory shall be cut off like a fading flower! May God grant that our soul may not be gathered with them. ~ C.H. Spurgeon

The preparations of the heart are in man: but the answer of the tongue is of the Lord.
(Pro 16:1 GB)
5 posted on 02/04/2004 9:57:04 AM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: RnMomof7
Southern Seminary journal critiques 'open theism' as false doctrine Aug 29, 2000 By Jeff Robinson

Old news.

6 posted on 02/04/2004 10:10:38 AM PST by Between the Lines (Tag Stolen - - - New Tag Applied For)
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To: RnMomof7
INTREP - THEOLOGY - OPEN THEISM
7 posted on 02/04/2004 10:37:16 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for the post. Here is something from R.C. Sproul on the subject:
Does God Change His Mind? If God is immutable, if He does not change at all, does that mean He never changes His mind either? This is a very thorny problem. The Bible appears to say at times that God changed His mind. Consider, for example, the following episode that took place in the time of Moses:

Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever." So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people. (Exod. 32:11-14)

God "relented"? Other translations render the words here, "changed His mind." This narrative seems to make it absolutely clear that God does, in fact, change His mind from time to time. Maybe His being doesn't change, but does His mind cast a shadow every once in awhile?

The problem becomes more vexing when we read elsewhere in Scripture:

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Behold, I have received a command to bless; He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it. (Num. 23:19-20)

This same concept is repeated elsewhere: "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent" (1 Sam. 15:29).

Is this a contradiction in Scripture? How are we to understand this?

We could throw up our hands and agree with the Bible's critics who insist that this is a blatant error or contradiction. A more judicious approach would be to grapple with the problem of what is called phenomenological language. (The illusion or appearance of something, "the way we see it" from our perspective. As they appear to us, not necessarily as they really are. The aim of the writer is to make a theological statement, a truth about God and man and his world, he's not using modern scientific precision and technical terminology.

Scripture frequently describes events in terms of how they appear to the observer. The Bible does not "teach" that the sun revolves around the earth, but it does speak about sunrises and sunsets. (Even modern scientists do this when they are using ordinary language. Listen to what the meteorologist on your local TV station says about the sun's "rising" and "setting.")

The most obvious use of phenomenological language in the Bible is its use of human terms to describe God. The Bible speaks of His coming and of His going, of His becoming angry, of His turning from wrath. He is described as having arms, hands, a face, and feet. Yet this multitude of references to God via human imagery is qualified by sober biblical warnings and reminders that God is not a man. It is noteworthy that in these "troubling" passages the qualifier is spelled out precisely in these terms: God "is not a man that He should relent [change His mind]" (1 Sam. 15:29).

If we took the discussion between Moses and God in Exodus and pressed the apparent meaning to the ultimate, what would it teach us about God? Not only would we think that God relented, but we would think that He relented because Moses showed God a more excellent way. Is it even thinkable to us that God should have an idea that is corrected by a fallible creature? If we entertain such a thought the ramifications are sobering.

For example, in the Exodus incident Moses pleaded with God, arguing that God would look bad to the Egyptians if He carried out His threat. Then God changed His mind? Think of the meaning of this in human terms: If God first thought about punishing His people, He must have overlooked the consequence of that action on His reputation. His reasoning was flawed. His decision was impulsive. Fortunately, Moses was astute enough to see the folly of this decision and persuaded the shortsighted Deity to come up with a better plan. Fortunately for God, He was helped by a superior guidance counselor. Without the help of Moses, God would have made a foolish mistake!

Even to talk like this is to border on blasphemy. That God could be corrected by Moses or any other creature is utterly unthinkable. Yet, that seems to be the implication of the narrative. This is a major reason why we must interpret the narrative passages of Scripture by the didactic or "teaching" portions. If we try to find too much theology in narrative passages, we can easily go beyond the point of the narrative into serious errors.

The biblical narratives in which God appears to repent, or change His mind, are almost always narratives that deal with His threats of judgment and punishment. These threats are then followed by the repentance of the people or by the intercessory petitions of their leaders. God is not talked into "changing His mind." Out of His gracious heart He only does what He has promised to do all along - not punish sinners who repent and turn from their evil ways. He chooses not to do what He has every right to do.

The point of these narratives is to encourage us to pray. We are to make intercession. The promised threats of divine punishment are given with the condition attached that if we repent, we wi1l escape those punishments. Sometimes that condition is spelled out explicitly, while at other times it is merely implied. When we repent, then God removes the threat of punishment. The question is, Who is ultimately repenting here? God never repents in the sense that He turns away from sin or from error.

God is not a man. He does not ultimately or literally have arms or legs. He does not repent as men repent. He listens to our prayers but is never corrected by them. He changes not- neither in the perfection of His being nor in the perfection of His thoughts.


It is one of the most solemn, even awful thoughts - that of the Divine repentance, which we should approach with worshipful reverence.

God's repentance is not like ours, for "the Strength of Israel will not lie, nor repent; for He is not a man that He should repent."

From "One Holy Passion", by R.C. Sproul.

10 posted on 02/04/2004 11:21:44 AM PST by sheltonmac (http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38123a4375fc.htm#30)
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To: RnMomof7
God really and truly changes his mind.

The implication being that the first state of mind was erroneous, which clashes with perfection. Of course, were it otherwise, prayer is a waste of time, as entreating God to veer from the Perfect Path is heresy.
27 posted on 02/04/2004 1:58:27 PM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: RnMomof7
If God changes His mind how do we know any prophecy will be fulfilled? What a stupid idea. Where's the Apostle Paul when we need him? I'd write Billy Graham but I doubt if that would do any good. :O)

Satan is out in full force to destroy the church and this is just another attack.
39 posted on 02/04/2004 3:38:44 PM PST by HarleyD (READ Your Bible-STUDY to show yourself approved)
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To: RnMomof7
Hi RnMomof7....Thanks for the article...I know John MacArthur has said he's not a real big fan of Christianily Today for the reason mentioned in this article and the need repentance if de-emphasized. I am presently reading John MacArthur new book called "Hard to Believe" kinda about alot of these issues.
46 posted on 02/04/2004 5:00:10 PM PST by anncoulteriscool
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To: RnMomof7; All
IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED THERE IS A GREAT PROGRAM ON THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL RIGHT NOW CALLED ANCIENT EVIDENCE THE 12 DISCIPLES OF JESUS IT STATRED AT 8:00 PST.
52 posted on 02/04/2004 8:16:32 PM PST by missyme
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