Posted on 06/05/2004 8:16:13 PM PDT by xzins
I may be missing something, because the issue of omnipotence and omniscience, and its effect on free will, does not keep me awake at nights.
I propose to build a house. This house will be built, I have my plans in hand, so I can say that I truly know the future. I know I am going to send workmen to the site, and at the end of some period of time, I will have my house.
This does not for a moment mean that every workman is equally talented, or equally dependable, some of them are bound to make mistakes. Some mistakes may be small enough that we can overlook them; some work we may have to tear out and re-do. Other mistakes may be too great to fix, so we will modify the design to incorporate the mistake, even to take advantage of opportunities caused by the mistake. You might say, mistakes will occur and will have to be redeemed, in other words.
Some workmen may have to be fired and others hired. Some will go fishing right when I need them, and I'll have to work around it. Or find someone else. Some men who are good with a hammer are no good with a saw, and my carpenters aren't very good plumbers, so my workforce will shift over time.
I may even have to put the whole project on hold for a time, until I can get the right crew together, and get the right materials gathered at the site. My schedule may slip.
But I have a plan, I am going to work the plan, and at the end of it I will have my house. I know and I control the future, because I have decided what the future will be. And I control it without exerting control over every waking moment of each individual workman, I don't even control which workman necessarily will do what. The workmen work for me voluntarily, and quit when they are tired of working for me. But I can guarantee that the tasks I will to be done, will in the end be done, because I'm not going to let it go until they are done.
If I can do all that, then you know that God can do that.
The question is does He? What does the bible say?
Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Psa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psa 115:3 But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
God is not the audience in a play written and directed by men
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
I'm not sure, but I think you are agreeing with me.
Ah, there it is. We do agree. You said it much more succinctly than I.
It is called talking past each other :>)
If I can do all that, then you know that God can do that.
Simply marvelous, marron. The imago Dei speaks here.
My dear man, you are probably the most relentless realist I have ever met. For you count awareness and experience as intrinsically superior to rote learning and doctrine as the most basically true guides of human knowledge and wisdom.
I happen to agree with you. So perchance I am a would-be realist, too?
Maybe we need to consult tpaine on this point. I think he takes a different view of relevant matters, and I don't think he's a dishonest man. That is to say, I think his judgment of the matter is well worth considering. If he feels like offering one.
I am blessed with/by my friends.
Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. – Genesis 18:14
The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, was slain approximately 2,000 years ago, but the world is much older than that. However, because He is God, He is eternal and transcends “all that there is” – from beginning to end. He is Alpha and Omega. His sacrifice changed everything, every when and everywhere. From the perspective of our timeline, He changed past, present and future.
Moreover, it is illogical for God to have previous knowledge but not the past knowledge. That would subordinate Him to the geometry of His own creation. And we know from the Scriptures He is not subordinate to space/time or any other laws of physics:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. – Matthew 3:9
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. – Genesis 1:1-3
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. – Revelation 20:11
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. – Revelation 21:1-2
Some examples of God changing His mind:
And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? ….
And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for twenty's sake. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake. And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. – Genesis 18:17-33
I have a more exhaustive explanation of my musings on the subject but in sum, I assert that man was made to be a spectator not a participant in the drama of the physical realm, that evil was created so that the spectators could observe and understand good by contrast and thus know God, who is good.
The key to my understanding is in the phrasing:
We usually agree completely though sometimes only mostly. But this time, I hold a completely different view. I reckon it had to happen. LOL!
If you are interested, my views begin at post 64
I think I'd like to back up a little. The first line of my previous post as I revisit it comes across perhaps as snotty when I intended "jocular".
One of the things you all have been kicking around is whether God's omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, are intrinsic aspects of his essence, or if perhaps one might be dependent on another, one might perhaps flow from another. I know this discussion is beyond my ability to answer without a good deal of reflection. I, probably like anyone I suppose, experience God as I experience him. I feel a little hesitant to try and put such a fine point on who and what he is, I couldn't begin to draw such distinctions based on what I know. I know only what I know, I have seen only what I have seen and experienced what I have experienced.
It would be difficult for me even to put such things into words.
It is sufficient for me to know with certainty that he is, and that he is in motion, and that I want to know him. I love what I know.
But I couldn't tell you what color necktie he is wearing and I can't tell you the exact metaphysical composition of his nature. That is quite beyond my powers.
But I was wrong when I said that such things don't keep me up at night, and AG knew me better. This is precisely the subject that I think about almost continually; not directly in such terms, but it is the question that emerges in every other question.
But I will offer my answer. When we say that God is perfect, all powerful, all knowing, these are descriptions that just make sense to us, but these are our terms, he is neither defined nor contained within such terms. I will agree that he is my creator, he is the creator of everything we know. I agree that he is everywhere present in his creation.
I believe that he has created us for a purpose, with power and authority to act in our individual corners of the created universe, he has given us the ability to act in the face of the local circumstances as we find them, based on reason that is a part of our design, and part of the universal design, and he has granted us the further gift of the shared wisdom of our fellows, and the capacity by spirit to further harmonize our actions with God's intent.
God "knows the future" because he is creating it, but the blueprints are dynamic, there is nothing static about them. That is the thing that I believe people often miss. This is opinion, of course... But God's design is dynamic, and the agents of his creation are several billion little creative spirits churning away like there was no tomorrow, driven by a hunger that he instilled in them, a hunger to build, a hunger to know, a hunger to love, a hunger that in the end could be described as a hunger for God.
God's plan, being dynamic, has room in it for you. Serendipity is not a flaw, its a feature. This does not mean that errors are desired but they are expected. They can be handled. Human liberty is not a flaw, it is not a problem, the design counts on the creative explosion that results from turning us loose on the universe; the errors and distractions and all of the pain and horror that result are not intended but can be borne.
People who try to find paradoxes in all of this must understand that God is not contained in our descriptions of him and so can not be defeated by any contradictions inherent in our terms. He is what he is, and it is our gift and journey to try and know who and what that is, but we shouldn't imagine we will have the final word on this side of the divide.
However, we were talking about the Bible specifically and one cannot read the Bible without first knowing how to read. Moreover, one must understand the terms used because the Bible is not written with a built-in dictionary, encyclopedia, atlas, formulae, etc.
Our understanding of some of the terms used in the Bible changes as science progresses. For instance, when we discovered that the sun does not revolve around the earth, we were able to understand certain passages much better.
Now we have discovered that time is relative to the observer. IMHO, keeping that in mind will also help in understanding certain passages.
AG that can not be twisted in anyway as a proof that God can change history . There are things God can not do . He can not violate His nature. He can not sin , He can not lie. He can not stop being omniscient or omnipotent or He ceases to be God. He can not create a rock He can not lift. So it is clear that scripture is out of context
You have pulled that scripture out of context. Another principle is you can not build a doctrine on an isolated scripture.
In saying that you believe Gad can change History you are saying that God can error or make mistakes. He did not plan his creation with a pencil
Now what does a commentator say off your 'proof text?
Job 42:1-6 . JOB'S PENITENT REPLY.
2. In the first clause he owns God to be omnipotent over nature, as contrasted with his own feebleness, which God had proved ( Job 40:15 41:34 ); in the second, that God is supremely just (which, in order to be governor of the world, He must needs be) in all His dealings, as contrasted with his own vileness ( Job 42:6 ), and incompetence to deal with the wicked as a just judge ( Job 40:8-14 ).
thought--"purpose," as in Job 17:11 ; but it is usually applied to evil devices ( Job 21:27 Psa 10:2 ): the ambiguous word is designedly chosen to express that, while to Job's finite view, God's plans seem bad, to the All-wise One they continue unhindered in their development, and will at last be seen to be as good as they are infinitely wise. No evil can emanate from the Parent of good ( Jam 1:13, 17 ); but it is His prerogative to overrule evil to good
Jamison .
Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. – Genesis 18:14
You can not just pick scripture out of context and claim a new doctrine from it
You evidently were pointing to the following verse as an example of foreplanning when you said ”The bible tells us that before the foundation of the earth that the plan of salvation was laid”, but the verse actually makes my point:
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. – Revelation 13:8
First of all what point? Second no that was not the scripture
Of Jesus the Bible says
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Of the elect it says
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The key phrase is: "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, was slain approximately 2,000 years ago, but the world is much older than that. However, because He is God, He is eternal and transcends “all that there is” – from beginning to end. He is Alpha and Omega. His sacrifice changed everything, every when and everywhere. From the perspective of our timeline, He changed past, present and future.
The age of the earth has nothing to do with anything . Please give me a Biblical example of God changing the past
Keep in mind the bible says this
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
So God has known every thing he would do from the foundation, so there is no need to change history
The key phrase is: "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, was slain approximately 2,000 years ago, but the world is much older than that. However, because He is God, He is eternal and transcends “all that there is” – from beginning to end. He is Alpha and Omega. His sacrifice changed everything, every when and everywhere. From the perspective of our timeline, He changed past, present and future.
Not from my perspective
God did not "change the past" not in scripture nor from my perspective.
Moreover, it is illogical for God to have previous knowledge but not the past knowledge. That would subordinate Him to the geometry of His own creation. And we know from the Scriptures He is not subordinate to space/time or any other laws of physics:
What the heck does this mean? I am a plain spoken person and I do not "get" alot of abstract non bible based ideas .Previous knowledge as opposed to past knowledge , what does that mean?
What does "that would subordinate Him to the geometry of His own creation."????
We know God has foreknowledge of all things , we know he foreordains things .
It is one thing to say that God is "outside time" that we can agree on, it is another thing to say that God does not work in an orderly way within time for men.
Time was created for men by God. God is not the author of confusion , He acts in an orderly way in time .Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. – Matthew 3:9 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. – Genesis 1:1-3 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. – Revelation 20:11 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. – Revelation 21:1-2
Not one of those Scriptures adresses the point of God changing history ..
You continued
The bible tells us that before the foundation of the earth that the plan of salvation was laid. That means that God knew with certainty that Adam would fall. Does God make mistakes?
By definition, since God is Truth, He does not make mistakes. And although the Scriptures are clear that He (His person) does not change, He has changed His mind. Why else, in the Garden of Gethsemane, would Jesus bother to ask the Father to remove the cup if it were not within His power? It was within His power, but it was not His will to do so.
That was not the question, the question was Does God make mistakes and have to go back and fix them...by changing history
Jesus is the second Adam , The first adam failed to keep the covenant with God, the second Adam coming to be the propitiation for the sin of Adam , kept the covenant perfectly .
Now lets look at the implication of your suggestion
Lets suppose that Jesus backed out. Lets say the Father could ( violate His covenant with men) or He would remove the cup? That would make God a liar.It would make void the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world That would make all the prophecy that God put in the mouths of men a lie. It would remove the attribute of mercy from God . It would mean that God lacks foreknowledge , because he planned and ordained that very moment .
Why were those words spoken ? Jesus had already said , He did not come to do His will, but the will of the Father. The purpose of the cross was to vindicate the holiness of God . Jesus spoke as a man knowing Human fear, yet He knew that the cross was a certainty .
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
The Father ordained and delivered up Christ to be crucified
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. – Genesis 6:5-6
I hope you are not suggesting that God was surprised by the sin of men ?
The Bible was written for men . It was written in a way that God's plan and nature could be understood . Words are used to describe God that are not intended to be read as literal , but anthropomorphic .
Jamison
describes it thus
5, 6. God saw it . . . repented . . . grieved--God cannot change ( Mal 3:6 Jam 1:17 ); but, by language suited to our nature and experience, He is described as about to alter His visible procedure towards mankind--from being merciful and long-suffering, He was about to show Himself a God of judgment; and, as that impious race had filled up the measure of their iniquities, He was about to introduce a terrible display of His justice ( Ecc 8:11 ).
And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? ….And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for twenty's sake. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake. And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. – Genesis 18:17-33
If He could not change things, then what would be the point of making request
AG are you implying that God did not KNOW if there were righteous men in Sodom or not? . God knew that there were no righteous men in Sodom , In a way that exchange represents out prayers. God already know what you want before you ask and He already know the answer you will get.
The wonderful example and teaching in this exchange is not that there was a chance that Sodom would be spared, but that God is willing to spare the wicked rather than to condemn the righteous
I agree. But our position raises the question of how we explain the presence of evil. For instance, how could God who is perfect, create an imperfection – or what could be made of anything other than Himself since He alone pre-existed all of creation?
Evil can not exist out side the will of God.
I have a more exhaustive explanation of my musings on the subject but in sum, I assert that man was made to be a spectator not a participant in the drama of the physical realm, that evil was created so that the spectators could observe and understand good by contrast and thus know God, who is good.
How would we know holiness without the contrast? Perhaps we have some common ground kinnda here.
God is glorified in His Justice and his Mercy.To those to whom He shows mercy it has meaning when we compare it to the justice that we deserve.
One more thing for you to muse on. Evil (satan on and his demons) are tools in the hand of God, accomplishing His purposes
May I say this about this topic. If we approach it as God has ordained all things that come to pass. We could consider the possibility that when He developed the plans before the foundation of the earth ,we can later see in the writings of men God considering all possibilities and planing and changing events and people before they were ever created. , so when God presents a situation to us , He in effect lets us view some of the process of His foreordination .Just a thought
I take scripture very seriously especially specific declarations about His nature.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he [is] not a man, that he should repent.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Initial indication 1: Joshua 10:13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on [ 10:13 Or [ nation triumphed over ] ] its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
initial indication 2: 2 Kings 20 9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees? 10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. 11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.
Reflection #1: 6 "I will strengthen the house of Judah and save the house of Joseph. I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them.
Part of the difficulty is defining what we mean by "changing the past."
For example, we would all agree that one's death is the end. "It is given unto man once to die, but after this the judgment."
In the case of Jesus' friend, Lazarus, he was raised again from death, and then he went on living again presumably until he died again and at some presumed point was buried again.
It is very arguable that Lazarus' PAST was changed and a new future was granted him.
These are all just preliminary thoughts and are not matters that I would put in a "statement of faith."
If one understands that God inhabits eternity, then the fact that he changes his mind in regard to some specific event or the way in which he deals with a person or a people does not in any way make him a changeable being or detract from his omniscience or omnipotence. From a linear standpoint, any change that is made was made from the foundation of the earth. Indeed, from before.
What does it all mean? I don't know, but I don't think we should assume that God did not "repent" when he says he did. I also don't believe that we should assume that God's repentance is fundamentally different from man's repentance. God is not a man that he "Should" repent, means simply that God is not commanded to repent nor is he obligated in any way to repent. But the fact is that he did repent. Several times. I think his repentance to-wards Israel is likened to his grace towards us. God has condemned men for their sins. When we repent of our sins and accept his grace, God's attitude towards us is one of repentance from the punishment that he had planned for us sinners.
We presume a lot to say that the bible is wrong when it says "repent" and we say it doesn't mean repent.
Here are three verses which indicate that God will not repent (at least, in a certain situation):
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he
should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and
shall he not make it good?
Ezekiel 24:14
I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not
go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways,
and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Psalm 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever
after the order of Melchizedek.
____________________
My opinion is that the above three verses should not be understood as both absolute, and of universal application. In support of this opinion, here are several verses, which indicate that, in some situations, God actually does "repent." This word only means that He has "changed His mind," NOT that what he has done, or declared will happen, is or was anything like a "mistake:"
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it
grieved him at his heart.
7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face
of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of
the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deuteronomy 32:36
For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants,
when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
Judges 2:18
And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the
judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of
the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of
them that oppressed them and vexed them.
1 Samuel 15:11
It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back
from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it
grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
1 Samuel 15:35
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death:
nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he
had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Samuel 24:16
And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it,
the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed
the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD
was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was
destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to
the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel
of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Psalm 90:13
Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy
servants.
Psalm 135:14
For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning
his servants.
Jeremiah 15:6
Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward:
therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am
weary with repenting.
Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the
LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath
pronounced against you.
Jeremiah 26:19
Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he
not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him
of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure
great evil against our souls.
Joel 2:13
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD
your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great
kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14
Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind
him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Amos 7:3
The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was
destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to
the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel
of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the
LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath
pronounced against you.
Joel 2:13
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD
your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great
kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Jonah 3:9
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce
anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God
repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he
did it not.
Jonah 4:2
And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not
this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto
Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to
anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Good verses that point out (1) God doesn't make mistakes, but (2) that men do and God will adjust fire accordingly.
On a previous post, I used a metaphor that might be appropriate here as well. It was concerning the Holy Spirit and the differences in doctrine among the churches and apostles and the various denominations today – as well as the seven Spirits of God, e.g. Rev 4.
The metaphor is that the Spirit is like a diamond with seven facets. Depending on the cut of a diamond and the facet one happens to be looking at, the light will appear differently. But it is the same diamond and the same light.
That we have differences is not cause for alarm. We are in the same Light and being led by the same Spirit, but we have different aspects, different talents (Matthew 25) different gifts (I Cor 12) and different understandings (Acts 15, Revelation 2-3, etc.)
As an example, you made the following two statements on your previous post:
The Bible was written for men . It was written in a way that God's plan and nature could be understood . Words are used to describe God that are not intended to be read as literal , but anthropomorphic.
For instance, I would say that it is impossible to understand as a mortal the incomprehensible God through our own efforts - and thus we cannot understand God’s plan and nature by reading the Bible alone. Therefore I assert that in order to have an effective understanding, we must have a personal relationship with Jesus through the indwelling Spirit, we must be born again. (John 3, Romans 8, I Cor 2)
As another example, I am very comfortable with the theory of relativity and with geometric physics. That particular earthy knowledge magnifies the Lord in my Spirit by underlining the Truth in various passages of Scripture. For instance, the Scriptures start with the phrase “in the beginning” but over the millennia man believed the universe always was (steady state) and had no beginning, i.e. that there was no beginning of time. But in the 1960’s because of the accuracy of relativity and measurements of cosmic microwave background radiation, we now know that the laws of physics requires a beginning. None of the well known cosmologies - whether big bang, multi-world, multi-verse, imaginary time, ekpyrotic or cyclic – can avoid that fact. The scientists have tried diligently to avoid the fact because it is an enormously important theological statement to come out of science.
That very same earthy knowledge underlines the statements in Revelation and in John concerning the deity of Christ, i.e that the Word was in the beginning with God and is God, that He is the Alpha and the Omega. It underlines that Christ’s sacrifice transcends everywhere and every when. As Monkfan put it in his crumpled paper metaphor in post 83 , here can be there, then can be now. It also underlines the passages concerning the elect and all of the prophesies throughout Scripture.
All of this magnifies the Lord to me and others who are looking at this facet of the Diamond.
The Light that shines from this facet is the same Light that shines on you, but I would not and should not demand that you move to my perspective. Contrary to your suggestion, I have no interest in creating doctrine; moreover, I eschew the doctrine of traditions of men and instead rely on the Word both by the indwelling Spirit and by the Scriptures.
You said: What the heck does this mean? I am a plain spoken person and I do not "get" alot of abstract non bible based ideas .Previous knowledge as opposed to past knowledge , what does that mean? What does "that would subordinate Him to the geometry of His own creation."???? We know God has foreknowledge of all things , we know he foreordains things .
The bottom line is that grasping with our minds how it might be that God changes the past, present and future by His presence, edicts or action requires a bit of knowledge of the physics of time (space/time).
For those of us who are willing to explore the physics of time, there is no higher order to which God must comply – neither time nor causality (cause/effect). Rather, God is creator of all of this – time, space, order, causality in some instances, non-locality in others, and so on. It is liberating to consider the physics of time – it magnifies the Lord. But it does require a certain amount of interest in mathematics and physics and a large investment of time, so it is not a facet for everyone.
Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
But I'm sure you have equally thrilling moments in the Spirit when the Lord is magnified while looking at the Diamond from a different facet.
The inventions and the maginations of man all fall, they are all carnal and subject to error.
The word of God stands forever.
So instead of using math or science or philosophy or psychology to explain spiritual things, it is more beneficial to my mind to use the bible to understand the works and "intelligence ' of man .
Todays science is tomorrows failure
Paul tells us that there is none that seek God, there is none that UNDERSTAND .
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men;and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
I don't rely on the doctrines and traditions of men for Spiritual Truth. And I certainly don't rely on science to verify Scripture. To the contrary, I rely on the Word and Scripture to verify science.
JASTROW: Oh yes, the metaphor there was that we know now that the universe had a beginning, and that all things that exist in this universe-life, planets, stars-can be traced back to that beginning, and it's a curiously theological result to come out of science. The image that I had in my mind as I wrote about this was a group of scientists and astronomers who are climbing up a range of mountain peaks and they come to the highest peak and the very top, and there they meet a band of theologians who have been sitting for centuries waiting for them.
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