Posted on 06/05/2004 8:16:13 PM PDT by xzins
I agree with you, xzins, that the three omni's ought to be taken as independent of one another. At bottom, it would be unreasonable to suggest any restrictions on the power or person of God. Any such restrictions (such as His not being able to lie) must be declared by Him. And I am not aware of anything in Scripture which declares an interdependency of the three omnis.
A metaphor might be ye olde "ant-in-the-coke-can". It would be reasonable for the ant to perceive that an entity is holding its can (movement, etc.) - but it would be unreasonable for the ant to presume that the entity holding the coke can is also an ant.
I had this argument just within the past year. It was put to me that God knows the future precisely because He is in control of everything. The implication clearly being, that God could not know the future if He were not controlling everything.
I countered by arguing that God knows the future because He occupies not only every point in space, but also every point in time. In other words, He is not only everywhere, but everywhen. He 'sees' the future because He is in the future. Therefore, His control is not a relevant factor.
I supported this further by arguing that time is inextricably linked to space and, therefore, must be part of the created order, just as space is. God, being the Creator, is not subject to the creation. That He permeates the entire time-space continuum in no way implies that He is bound within it's confines. Rather, He transcends it.
In short, it is as easy for Him to describe events in the future as it is for me to describe the objects on my desk.
Likewise we pray – not because we can change the future, but because He can – and not on a timeline either, but all at once.
I was once engaged in a conversation about the effectiveness of prayers for the dead. In the Orthodox Church, prayers for the dead are considered effective, without speculation as to how. So, there we were, sipping coffee and speculating as to how. Unofficially, of course.
Basically, once a person dies, that's it for them. They can no longer do anything, good or bad. So whatever state they were in (in regards to sanctification) when they died, that's how they will remain. However, the prayers of others may be a caveat. In brief, a person could go into the grave in bad shape and pop out of it in good shape, due to the afformentioned prayers (presuming, of course, that this is within God's will). From a strictly temporal perspective, it would seem as if these prayers were retroactive; a prayer said on thursday affecting a person who died on tuesday. This is one possibility. God, having perfect knowledge of the future as well as unrestricted 'mobility' outside the timeline, could easily manage this. However, if we consider that the afterlife is not inside this particular time-space continuum, but in another realm outside of it, then the precise order of events in this timeline becomes moot, since a one-to-one ratio between realms is not a given. Prayers offered up at any point in this realm could be applied, by God, to someone in the other realm without regard to any sequencing processes inherent to either realm, respectively.
We are familiar only with being in one place at any given time. Put differently, we occupy a specific point in the time-space continuum. But we can imagine exceptions. Consider the concept of folded space. Gravity bends space. Theoretically, space could be bent back over itself, producing a fold. Folded tight enough, the observable distictions between 'here' and 'there' would cease to exist. Any object residing withing that fold may very well appear to be both 'here' and 'there' simultaneously. Fold space again and an object may appear to be here, there and also somewhere else. Since space and time are linked, a fold in space would seem to necessitate a fold in time as well. The future might appear to coincide with the past! Just for kicks, imagine this: what if, instead of neatly folded, time-space were crumpled.
Now, imagine a realm where the dimentions are not smooth, but crumply. Imagine that the crumpling is such, that any perceivable 'point' is accessable from any other perceivable 'point'. One could participate in a logical sequence of events without actually being bound by the process of sequencing. The sequencing would be by choice, rather than necessity. One could step out of a particular logical sequence, participate in another, and return to the original sequence without missing a single moment in either sequence.
I've enjoyed reading your posts and look forward to any thought you may have on this.
You truly understand that time is geometric. This is a very tough concept for many but it lies at the heart of special relativity, general relativity, string theories, brane theories et al.
Your crumpled space/time is a great metaphor for the very point that, even in a four dimensional worldview, here may also be there, and now may be then.
And when you apply the topology of general relativity and consider extra dimensions (and particularly extra temporal dimensions) it becomes painfully clear that applying our sensory perception of timelines to God is pointless.
Speaking of techno-jargon though, the whole discipline of quantum field theory is based on the notion that fields are entities which exist in all points of space/time. And if we know from quantum mechanics that this is true of the fields (gravity, electro-magnetism, strong and weak atomic force) - why would anyone deign to limit God to a single coordinate set or Hilbert space!!! Jeepers...
Not really , I am not God, God will not die tomorrow. If he knows there is a cake because he is going to make it, it will be there.
We weren't talking about God. We were talking about you.
And we WOULD have demonstrated the difference between foreknowing as a separate ability and foreknowing based on the ability to foreplan.
Therefore, the ability to foreknow based on inate ability IS a conceivable, separate idea from the ability to foreknow based on foreplannning..
One can say there is a difference , and there is.
The difference is between human foreknowledge and divine foreknowledge.
I know the sun will be up tomorrow morning and therefore make a decision how to dress and to put my sunglasses in the car.
The foreknowledge of God is the sun will only rise in the morning because He ordains it to
For some reason men want to make God in their image and apply to God human limitations .
Let me ask you this
If God foresees every thing that ever as and ever will be, can he change thins in the future?
The question really has to do with whether or not God can chart a new course.
I've heard three answers on that. Some say that any semblance of that in the scripture is an anthropomorphism. Others say that God inhabits eternity and, therefore, adaptations can occur AND can be in time such that they have always been. Others simply say, yes.
I come down in the 2nd camp. I can pray for something and it can be incorporated as an answer based on the eternity of God.
Therefore, the ability to foreknow based on inate ability IS a conceivable, separate idea from the ability to foreknow based on foreplannning..
Foreknowledge is previous knowledge not prediction.
To tie God's "foreknowledge" to "foreplanning" would relegate Him to what we already know is a false perception of the geometry of space/time. God is the Creator of "all that there is" (including space/time) He is not subject to it.
Yes it is xzins, that is exactly the issue. If God only knows the future events on the basis of His foreknowledge and not based on His fore ordination , the He is simply a bystander to the affairs of men.
If you believe in ABSOLUTE Foreknowledge , then what He sees MUST occur. There can be no intervention because His foreknowledge would be what would occur with or after He decided to act
If His foreknowledge is simply one of possible or potential outcomes (not absolute) , then it is planning foreknowledge . To allow it to occur or to change the event is then Fore ordination based on Foreknowledge
I come down in the 2nd camp. I can pray for something and it can be incorporated as an answer based on the eternity of God.
Did God foreknow you would pray? What of horrid event where no one knows they should pray ? (earthquakes fires , 9/11 )
How do you know it is "false" would you explain to me how you know absolutely that , where is that in the Bible?
Space-Time-Matter Consortium (5 dimensions)
String Duality - extra time dimension
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. - Matthew 26:39-42
Truly outstanding observations, monkfan! The proposition that was put to you -- "that God knows the future precisely because He is in control of everything" -- implies a thoroughly deterministic worldview. The divine endowment of free will in man would appear to be pointless, illusionary on such a view. The idea that man is the imago dei, a creature made in God's "image," or reflection of the divine nature, having mind and free will, would be senseless: Why would God endow man with something that could have no real purpose or effect in a deterministic universe?
As you say, God utterly transcends the universe, and yet thoroughly "permeates it" spatially and temporally. God cannot be made intelligible by means of the "normal" categories of the human mind, which seem ultimately to be based on our experience of a 4D world. Anselm of Cantebury put it this way: "Lord, you are not only that than which a greater cannot be conceived, but you are also greater than what can be conceived."
It seems to me that any attempt to define God results in a hopeless reductionism and distortion of the divine nature. But if we want to try, we need to be thinking in terms of dimensions beyond the three of space and one of time. For God is not bound within the 4D block -- as you say, He transcends it. Therefore, it logically follows that a valid description of God cannot be formulated in 4D-block terms.
Thank you for your superlative essay, monkfan!
I'm so sorry I forgot to ping you, marron. I've been gone for nigh onto a week on a family reunion at the lake and I'm just not altogether "with it" even now. LOL! This conversation is very much in your interest domain and I'm anxious to hear your views.
Precisely.
What is required for "knowledge?" One must have a "knower." Also "subject matter." Also, "details" about that subject matter. Another aspect might be "source." (Knowledge CAN BE gained from the "source" known as "foreplanning." It's just that it isn't the only source.) Off the top of my head, other "sources" include: intuition, expert, experience, insight, realization, awareness, infusion, etc.
In prediction, the "subject matter" is causal and not yet real or actual. It is only a projection, a likelihood, a plan, insight, intuition and all the other things you've named.
So you are using human intelligence and applying it as absolute truth on which to determine the nature of God and the way he works?
To be honest AG, if it is not confirmed in the bible it is a doctrine of man, I find no truth there
AG , can I ask what kind of a church you go to? Where dies it teach that God can or would change history?
The bible tells us that before the foundation of the earth that the plan of salvation was laid. That means that God knew with certainty that Adam would fall. Does God make mistakes?
He knew that Adam would fall, He knew the curses He would place on fallen man . He laid in place a plan to assuage His wrath and redeem men . And He knew who He would saved .
Now some scripture that says that God has no reason or purpose to go back and change anything
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jesus is the 2nd Adam, where the first Adam rebelled, the second Adam had to be obedient . Thus Jesus submited to the authority of the Father , so that obedience could be imputed to us . God does nothing that is not His will, if it were not His will He would not do it. God can not act contrary to his nature.
AG There is one thing God can never do, and that is violate His own words .
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