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To: nobdysfool; xzins; connectthedots
So, it seems we have refuted Open Theism, and also laid an axe to the root of Arminian theology.

...And laid yourself bare to the charge of necessitarianism, the belief that everything necessarily (of necessity) happens, because God has decreed it, including all things sinful. Logically, this is a contradiction, since for it to be sinful, it must be against what God has commanded; yet God has commanded them to do it (or commanded them to follow their nature, which is to do it--ultimately, responsibility for the actions taken doesn't shift because of the mental gymnastics).

Wasn't it CTD that was arguing a while ago that there were several members of the Swarm that were of the belief that God was the author of all things, even sin? And wasn't that how he (and others) have defined hyper-Calvinism?

As for the rest of the points, I need to get to work soon and am really tired, so I'll leave their discussion to others. I'll try to get back to any responses you may have by tomorrow afternoon.

39 posted on 06/06/2004 2:33:16 PM PDT by The Grammarian (God's in his heaven, all's well with the world.)
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To: The Grammarian; connectthedots
...And laid yourself bare to the charge of necessitarianism, the belief that everything necessarily (of necessity) happens, because God has decreed it, including all things sinful. Logically, this is a contradiction, since for it to be sinful, it must be against what God has commanded; yet God has commanded them to do it (or commanded them to follow their nature, which is to do it--ultimately, responsibility for the actions taken doesn't shift because of the mental gymnastics).

God created man with the ability to sin. Adam chose to sin. Because of that, all men are sinners. God didn't make man sin, but He allowed him to sin. One must conclude that since God allows sin, it must serve a purpose, else He would either have not allowed it in the first place, or He could have just judged Adam and Eve, not allowed them to reproduce, and ended it that way.

We must remember also that sin did not originate with Adam, it originated with Lucifer. Obviously it serves a better, higher purpose for sin to exist for now, although it will be done away with finally at the End of the Age. But sin is not chargeable to God, because He didn't commit it, nor is He responsible for those who bear its curse. That leaves Him free to show Mercy on whom He will, and to harden whom He will. He causes that which opposes Him to bring about His Purpose, something which we are not privy to, except for what he has chosen to reveal to us.

No man is judged for the circumstances of his birth. He is judged for the sins he commits in violation of the knowledge of God which he has. But his sinful nature ensures that he will reject that knowledge, and seal his fate. That sinful nature was inherited from Adam, not decreed upon the individual.

Wasn't it CTD that was arguing a while ago that there were several members of the Swarm that were of the belief that God was the author of all things, even sin? And wasn't that how he (and others) have defined hyper-Calvinism?

HyperCalvinism is the belief that evangelism is unnecessary, because God has decreed who will be saved, apart from any agency to bring about their salvation. ctd is trying to establish that a belief in Predestination and Election, as Calvin and Dordt defined it, are defacto HyperCalvinism. In other words, he is trying to state that mainstream Calvinism is hyper, something akin to saying that the political spectrum runs from Totalitarianism on the far left to Facism on the far right, when in reality that spectrum is entirely leftist, because the true spectrum is Totalitarianism on the Far Left to Total Anarchy on the Far Right. ctd starts from a faulty premise, and his conclusions are not supportable or accurate.

42 posted on 06/06/2004 8:43:25 PM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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