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To: Alamo-Girl
a) the primeval soup probably never existed

Nonsense. Hydrothermal systems that exhibit complex organic chemistry bootstrapping are known to exist today in some corners of the world.

b) even if it did, the various self-organizational schemes proposed to "explain" the origin of life still don't work

Nonsense. Significant biochemistry substructures are observed to be generated in the systems referenced above. However, the chemistry of this catalytic self-assembly is not fully understood.

c) life must be accepted as an axiom

Nonsense. Life is not even well-defined, and becomes very fuzzy under scrutiny in practice -- there is no such thing as a closed system. Regardless, "life" is an arbitrary categorization based on a set of system properties, not an axiom. (In a sense, this makes the above argument a circular definition.)

151 posted on 12/15/2004 9:53:58 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: tortoise
Hi there, tortoise! I'm so tickled you decided to post! Thank you!

But, er, you have provided no evidence - source references we can use to explore what you have just said.

I'm particularly interested in evidence of "hydrothermal systems that exhibit complex organic chemistry bootstrapping" - providing of course that the chemistry evidences both autonomy and symbolization in support of successful communication. This is the quandary suggested at the end of Pattee's essay.

Also - if you have anything more up-to-date than Rocha's work with regard to possible mechanisms for the rise of self-organizing complexity in an RNA world, I'd love to read about it!

I do however dispute your conclusion that life is not yet well defined. It seems to me that the comparison between a live skin cell and a dead skin cell makes the point rather well. The live skin cell is communicating successfully (Shannon information theory) with itself and its environment. The DNA and chemistry, OTOH, is as good dead as alive.

152 posted on 12/15/2004 10:11:41 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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