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To: suzyjaruki
WC: But what does that position leave for petitionary prayer? Isn't it true that the determinist model leaves no real expectation of an answer to petitionary prayer for others?

SJ: No, that is not true, there is expectation that leads to praise when God's will is carried out.

WC: What purpose is served in asking for anything (particularly for others) in sincere prayer to God? What possible purpose is served?

SJ: It gives God the glory due to Him.

_______________

Now I have only been a lawyer for 36 years now, so I've still got room to learn, but what in Heaven's name does "...expectation that leads to praise ..." mean, if anything at all? And why does praying petitionary prayers for others to a (determinist-presupposed) impassive and unchanging God "...give[] God the glory due to Him?"

Let's make this make this concrete. A friend's 10-year-old son has inoperable brain tumors. They (father and mother) are not Christians in a Biblical sense; they were raised in the RCC. But they are, as you might expect frantic. [The mother took the little boy to some RCC holy man in the jungles of the Amazon, who examined his "auras."] I am frantic too. This man, a physician, was particularly kind to my wife when she was dying. I know the little boy.

Now, I am not the greatest prayer warrior, but I have prayed repeatedly for this boy. I know one thing. If he is to be healed, only God can do it. He is literally dying before our eyes. And it will get pretty bad before it ends, if it is to end in death.

Now, please explain in words simple enough for me to understand, what does it mean to say that when I pray to God for this little boy,"...there is expectation that leads to praise" from a determinist perspective? The only "expectation" I have is that Scripture tells me that, even if God has heretofore decided that this little boy should die, He might change His mind and heal him in response to prayer (from me and others). If I thought for one minute that whatever God had decided was fixed and that He was incapable of changing it, I am still rational enough (even at my advancing age) that I would know better than to pray for something beyond His power.

If my desk is either mahogany or pine (but I don't know which), I am rational enough not to pray that God will make it one or the other now.

Neither God's will nor this little boy are like my inanimate, impassive desk. So I pray. And I cry. And I pray some more.

Now the standard determinist response (assuming God is as wooden as my desk) is that, since I don't know whether my desk is mahogany or pine, I should pray that it is mahogany, with the 'expectation' that it might be and then when its composition is later disclosed, maybe I thank (the determinist) God that I guessed the right answer in my prayer (if it turns out to have been mahogany). But one thing is for sure, the determinist God didn't change the desk; I just guessed right. How this is supposed to "...give[] God the glory due to Him" is beyond me. If He made my inanimate desk out of pine, where's the 'glory' in that? If He made it out of mahogany, no more 'glory' there.

The real 'glory' and the real 'expectation of praise' is that the God of Scripture (determinist presuppostions to the contrary notwithstanding), not only listens to our prayers, He sometimes acts on them. He is not impassive and wooden, like my desk.

Now what about the straw man you throw up about Mr. M. ["What if you were petitioning for "Mr. M" and I was petitioning just the opposite for "Mr. M" in my prayers, in your model does God flip a coin?"] The implication is that, if God were to have the power to change His Mind, then God must somehow be bound to answer my prayer (or yours) in the manner we respectively suggest. That is not true; it does not follow. Just because He can and sometimes does change the previously intended result, does not mean that He must do so. [And, BTW, God never, ever, ever acts arbitrarily (such as in flipping a coin) that's why the occupants of Heaven and Hell were not determined arbitrarily by some 'secret counsel' or some 'divine paradox' before the foundation of the world.]

But, just as much to Jonah's chagrin, when the pagan people of Niniveh prayed sincerely to God, He did in fact changed His mind. I know that -- no speculation on my part -- because the Bible tells me so.

18 posted on 02/08/2005 8:42:09 PM PST by winstonchurchill
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To: winstonchurchill
Consider David, 2 Samuel 12:16-23
And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. So the elders of his house arose and went to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. For they said, "Indeed, while the child was alive, we spoke to him, and he would not heed our voice. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He may do some harm!"

When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead."

So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food."

And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?" But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

"expectation that leads to praise" is praying in earnest for what I want to the only one who has control over the situation and then waiting/watching to see what He wants followed by worship (praise) when what He wants is lived out. This is giving God the glory for what He has done. That is what David did.

When you pray for this family, do you pray for their souls? Will these parents be able to look forward to seeing their son in heaven? Are they prepared for any other answer than healing?

What about you, So I pray. And I cry. And I pray some more.? Are you prepared? How will you feel about God if He doesn't change His mind?

About the straw man, "Mr. M", let me make that scenario concrete. My father died a few years ago from kidney failure. He had many years of suffering from strokes prior to this final blow. Just before he died, I prayed that God would take my father and end his suffering, because I wanted my father to be in heaven and not suffer any longer. The rest of my family, at the same time, were praying for God to heal him. My prayer was answered 'yes' - not because I guessed right, but because the Holy Spirit led me in my prayer, preparing me for what was to follow. My father is with God and I give thanks to Him (glory due Him) that even though I miss my father, he is far better off.

I pray, as David did because I don't know the answers but my wise and powerful God who knows all things and I can trust Him to do what is right.

19 posted on 02/09/2005 9:55:05 AM PST by suzyjaruki (No pain, no gain - on the road to spiritual maturity)
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