[shekkian]

What I mean is when you look at the case of Roger Martinez, who was the singer/growler of a Christian metal band, Vengeance Rising back in the 80's. Through a series of unpleasant events within the band and personal conflict, he eventually renounced his salvation and turned completely atheist.

Later, his pastor was talking with Roger's ex-wife, and she said he was a Christian at one time. The pastor said, in that case he still is. In my mind, it just didn't connect.

Furthermore, how about that guy who shot up that church in Wisconsin and then killed himself. What happens to him now?

[mike182d]

Furthermore, how about that guy who shot up that church in Wisconsin and then killed himself. What happens to him now?

Well, if he said a prayer in his life that "saved" him, and professed Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, it doesn't matter what "works" he did. He can be sure of his salvation. /sarcasm

[JohnnyM]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

JM

[biblewonk]

Individual examples can never prove this issue because we don't know whether the person ever was saved to beginwith or was a wannabe, or if they were saved and have just "stumbled" really bad. We can only go to the Bible for proof.