Posted on 05/04/2005 9:19:47 AM PDT by ksen
That's the critical point.
No one defends the excesses of the psychiatric profession. Too often the "experts" have made psychaitry explain away almost all responsibility for almost all people.
The equally horrific extreme is exemplified by Jay Adams books, where he claims even schizophrenia is a lie foisted upon us by the psychiatric lobby, but all "mental health" problems are spiritual at their core. Such wrong-headed ignorance can only harm those afflicted with organic, medical conditions whose counsellors fail to secure proper medical treatment for them.
Thank you ksen for this thread. Thank you suzyjaruki for you kind request for my experience. I will tell you some of my interactions with the psychological community. I studied to a pastoral counselor. That was what I focused on. I began as a psych major in secular college and was completely discouraged by the insistence of Darwin theory. So I left. I spent a year at Moody Bible institute then came home to Michigan and graduated from William Tyndall college with a degree in Religious Education in Pastoral Counseling.
After which I succumbed to the typical and predictable depression and faith searching that comes out of those who attend any seminary. They study God right out of you. They also study your faith to confusion and impotence. After struggling in the foster care industry and seeking treatment for the persistent depression through Christian counseling and Psychiatry, I stood on my faith once again. I went to a promise keepers meeting and rededicated my life to Christ. I then put away the anti anxiety and depression medication and was cured of depression through 2 Cor 10:4-7.
Then I was granted the opportunity to return to school and get credentialed. It was secular education which I fought and learned from. My 3.89 average is not boasting but hard soul searching and submission to God. Now I hope to be used by God as a tool. (Can you imagine a scalpel feeling smug and boastful after a successful surgery?) So I must say I hope to represent to you a humble fellow Christian who may be used by God.
Psychology does have its merits. But not where you would think. When it suggest a cure, they do not mean what you think. You could think of it more like diabetes. You are managing and highly functional, but not cured.
Therefore a person who is suffering from depression is not a cured, but relieved of the incapacitation that stops functioning. These are not semantics as much as they are achievable goals.
So I will meet a person where they are. If they wish to be treated like a psych patient I will tell them that and use those parameters. If they wish to be spiritual I will endeavor to take them to THE COUNSELOR, and use the tools that psychology perfected.
Some of those tools are very much in pop psy currently. Such as reflective listening, active listening, structuring the session and questioning. These are a phew that work. Others that work and are used are classical conditioning, in its place and limited to what it can do. Reflection and respect of persons, create the atmosphere of openness that is required for personal change. There are certain gestalt exercises that have great effect, with out change of ideals. There are many other tools such as language and diagnostic structure that allow defining of symptoms into a rubric of prognosis. We also learned to use the DSM IV and worked with the psychiatrist to prescribe medication. Some MSW’s actually do prescribe medicine which the Psychiatrist signs off on.
Lastly there are great tests and assessments that aid in defining individuals into categories that are greatly helpful. Take a look at the Meyers Briggs or Kersey Typology. (Check it out, very cool. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp ) These are all useful tools like a saw or a hammer. Would you build a house with out power tools? Do they change you fundamentals of what you are building or why? No.
Keeping the tools of psychology in perspective is what enables them to function as tools. However, if you have ever had to open a tin can with a hammer you start to understand the difference between proper use or presupposition.
All that to say stop Christian psychology from over stepping its bounds into defining what is cured with out the scriptural structure, and it has some value.
Many Christian psychology professionals are only average pew warmers, who then practice secular psychology. ( by the way. During my internship in a fully functional psychiatric clinic, a good practitioner had a success rate of 22%. That was an eye opener.)
From the article, quoting Christianity Today: A pastor’s calling is, primarily, a spiritual one, helping people to find strength in God’s presence and a sense of divine direction in the midst of difficulty. Psychological adjustment is a different matter, and when it requires serious attention, pastors should find ways of partnering with professional counselors or psychiatrists.
Do you agree with this statement?
There are many hurting people in any average congregation. How can they best be helped? My former pastor refused to counsel anyone and instead found a way to lecture them through the sermon.
The Myers-Briggs and the Kiersey are both interesting tools and give you some insight into what makes people tick. My problem with both (they're essentially the same thing), is the problem with any inventory. People are placed into categories (16 in this case), and that gives the false impression that there are 16 personality types. It's more a continuum, I think....
A chaplain with the US Army for 20 years, I supervised the Army's largest Chaplain Family Life region in Germany for 4 years. Covering American bases in 6 central German cities (primarily the 1st AD footprint), I had visitation and counseling hours on a traveling basis. I also had a radio program (The Family Chaplain) broadcast to a few hundred thousand American military throughout Europe.
After 4 years in that ministry, I had garnered a couple thousand client hours, and had multiple Master's level degrees (Phi Kappa Phi, perfect GPA) to put them to effective use as a Christian counselor.
I guarantee you that the Christian counselor's effectiveness with some of the modern therapies (narrative and SF ...mixed with cognitive... were my preferred) is exponentially strengthened using a Christian pastoral model.
It has always seemed to me that the pastoral key unlocks the therapy's potential. But a secular counselor wouldn't admit that. My success rate (measured in marriages that persevered rather than dissolved for three years after the therapy) was far better than 22%. It was over 75%.
Which would then make your first post to me rather patronizing, now wouldn't it?
Okay, let's ask some of the Psychology majors at Calvin College.
All Myers-Briggs ever really told me was that my wife and I ended up in completely opposite corners.
I found out I was an INTJ when I took that test. My roommate said it was accurate.
John Calvin saved me $9.99 at the Cokesbury Bookstore!
Our assessment was fairly accurate. But I agree with xzins that it's a little too inflexible.
I wonder how much of it is like fortune cookies - after seeing the fortune, you can find a way to make it apply to yourself.
Seems like, in the 70s, when I was reading my newspaper horoscope, it was always pretty accurate.
Good Dateline on now
ARE WE IN THE SIGNS OF THE DIVINE?
ON NOW PST
I hate reflective listening etc. -- the only thing that helped me out of my clinical depression was getting into a Positive Mental Attitude group, learning behaviour modification techniques to deal with symptoms, and getting involved with the NHL. I did not care how the problems arose, only wanted to get enough control of myself back so I could leave the house and take care of myself.
Later on someone discovered dyslexia and calculators, and all my 'self esteem' problems were diagnosed and solved; I then changed my name to get rid of the baggage I'd been carrying around with me, found a church that was not too busy bashing capitalism and raising funds to actually pay attention to the Gospel Message (and where single people were NOT derided, as in one congregation where the middle aged social group was called "Pairs AND SPARES") and took up liturgical choral training to get back to singing the Latin Mass.
Then came the opportunity to spend 17 years raising my younger sister and my two boys, and I had the strength and the direction to rely on -- from both the medical and the spiritual foundations, and from the fortuitous invention of technology that overcame a problem nobody had ever even realized wasn't 'math anxiety' or 'girls aren't good at math' but was a defect in wiring. And not all the spiritual help in the world would have fixed it if nobody had invented the calculator. God and the Church can help you only when you've got eyes to see and ears to hear and equipment to make it all add up.
But psychology only made me want to sandbag the tests and confuse the psychologist (or pour cold water in his pockets.) It never did me a bit of good.
A predictable response. Thank you for that patronizing judgment. I've read enough of your posts to be wary of ingenuineness. Rather than engaging in meaningful dialogue regarding my suggestion, you've validated my assessment.
I'm sorry, but I want to have an enjoyable marriage. My wife and I deserve to have an enjoyable marriage - just like the other couples at church - and we need that other point of reference. And in Reformed circles, you don't talk about marital problems in the church - you keep them hidden and seek outside help. Maybe your (plural) circles are different.
Regardless of the particular counsellor's beliefs, he provides a fixed point of reference against which a Christian couple can work out their issues. Even if he's an atheist, his main role is to listen.
That's very impressive! There are so many hurting marriages out there, why would you be inclined to spend so much time on this forum. With your loving heart and pastoral gifts, the Church would be greatly edified by your labors.
"When I went into a deep depression following my round with cancer, just exactly what sin did I need to deal with? "
I have never experienced what I would call a "deep" depression, but I have dealt with fairly serious anxiety and depression in my life. So, I'm not speaking to your specific experience, but I can say that for myself I have realized that when I get into these things, what is happening is that I have lost some of my faith in God, and most of my trust in Him-- that is my sin. Spending more time in prayer, in reading and study, and in church always help me.
I do know that some depression is chemically based, but I'm pretty sure mine never has been.
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