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To: Mrs. Don-o; livius
I completely agree that the situation in America is just as "unthinkable" as is that in the Ukraine. You also certainly won't get any argument from me that Orthodox are just as capable of behaving badly as are others -- perhaps more so, with all those hot Mediterranean and Eastern European tempers, and with "crazy converts" and their zealotry to fuel the fire.

The organizational situation in the "diaspora" is completely uncanonical, and everyone knows it -- although it doesn't keep some folks from having triumphalistic visions of their particular jurisdiction. These jurisdictional divisions have both given rise to some of the unpleasant situations you mention, and have muted the ability of hierarchs to rein in parish revolts that are not happening for good reasons.

I was in a parish where there was a revolt that could have resulted in a nasty split. The revolt, however, was one that stemmed from solid reasons: pastoral malpractice and some twisted theology creeping in. The dean and bishop handled things very well, but I can tell you that if the people hadn't been vigilant and persistent, we would have had real problems.

We had Catholic family members of some of our parishioners rendered to states of bewonderment: that we would actually care about what they perceived as being relatively minor problems, that we would appeal so forcfully to the bishop, that we would imagine that a bishop would actually listen to us, and that the bishop would actually act. Of course these were parishioners who were in a diocese where one of the most prominent priests is a known homosexual, and where the diocese had paid off big settlements to several young men that he had allegedly sexually assaulted (including another priest), but he has yet to be removed or disciplined -- so one can see where their incredulity came from.

One of the things that made the case put to the bishop so strong was that the message was quietly relayed through discreet channels that there would be no property struggle or lawsuits. If the situation was not resolved, there would have been a huge parish walkout, but no attempt to keep the property by this vast majority of the parish would have ensued. The people involved were prepared to walk away from a whole lot of money and work that they had put into the parish, just to have a place to pray in peace and safety.

That parish emerged intact, and stronger and larger in spite of, and partly because of the process.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I certainly am sickened by some of the situations you mention (I fortunately have never been around one, but I've certainly heard about them), I wouldn't have it any other way, since I saw first hand what was happening to that parish and the countless people who would simply have either left the Church or been drawn into something very sick had concerned parishioners not acted to defend the faith and spiritual life of the parish.

I'm familiar with two very unfortunate cases in the southern Appalachians -- one in NC, the other in Atlanta. Both were intimately tied up with poor episcopal judgment (one on the part of the ROCOR, the other on the part of the OCA.) I've been to both of the parishes involved, and both are wonderful communities. Situations like this are truly tragic. They are certainly less common than they were decades ago, since ethnic chauvinism is dropping rapidly and there are not the complicating factors of communist governments back in the old countries. With the rapproachment of the ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate rapidly coming down on us, the situation should improve even more.

It may be that these things go on with great frequency yet today, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I've just lived a sheltered Orthodox life this past decade and a half. I've moved a lot and have been a member of 6 parishes in four different jurisdictions and have attended frequently and had good relationships with at least a dozen more (and add in a couple more jurisdictions). None of these parishes had these kinds of things go on, at least in recent memory, and in all of these cities the Orthodox of different jurisdictions got along great. Even at my ROCOR parish (which sometimes has a reputation for being isolationist because of their history), our priest was best of friends with the Greek priest in town -- we borrowed their much larger church for weddings and funerals, and he frequently came to our functions.

I certainly grieve when I hear of people losing their faith over petty disputes within or between parishes -- or even over serious and valid disputes that are carried out in petty ways. It is unfortunate that all of the Orthodox parishes that you've been exposed to are in legal fights over property and changing locks and hiding keys. I just have to say that this has simply not been my experience at all.

35 posted on 05/15/2005 2:55:17 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian

Part of it probably has to do with "Old World" habits and conflicts, as well as peculiarities of property ownership. I imagine that as the population of Orthodox churches shifts away from immigrants or people who have grown up in that culture, this model will fade away.

Also, the presence of former Catholics probably helps, since they have a different experience with church structure. Protestants in the US tend to have church break-ups on a fairly regular basis (hence the scores of different denominations), but I suspect that most of those who become Orthodox come from the more stable churches, and they probably contribute to stability, too.

It would be lovely to hit a happy medium between tiny warring cells and a vast amorphous top-down entity...but perhaps there's no ideal situation anywhere short of Heaven!


36 posted on 05/15/2005 4:08:45 PM PDT by livius
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