Posted on 05/10/2006 3:12:30 PM PDT by conserv371
Many times googling I find the argument of determinism vs. freewill. It's all fixed or the future is totally unpredictable. I've come to an idea called determined freewill which states that there is a script for all and when the "play of history" has ended all will have followed this script exactly as it is written.
Is this saying that everything is done is moral? No. It is saying that our freewill choices are predictable as well as directed by God. God prohibits, permits and causes what occurs from the beginning of time to the end of it.
Jesus said it would have been good if Judas had not been born but Judas had a role in betrayal to play in Jesus' crucifixion. Jesus also said He could have a host of angels to deliver Him but how would the scriptures be fulfilled. He finally states that He was in temple where He could have been arrested but it was not meant to be.
All this to say, everything goes a certain way whether we like it or not. It is amazing to think that everything we choose to do is already determined by God.
Does this make us less accountable? No. We choose every path we take whether it be right or wrong, good or evil, wise or foolish. Adam and Eve had the freedom to eat of all the trees of the garden and God allowed them to choose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of which He told them not to eat. God has determined to give us the same freedom and He knows and controls those choices we make.
So what do you think?
Yes. And it makes it very annoying to know that it is all pre-determined. And yet, we still must forget that we know it, and pretend like we are choosing. But I think this is all tied up with everything in society teaching us to fight God. Remember, it's not God's fault that society teaches it's people this way. In the end, patience and character is what it builds...
But the reality is . . .and by all intents and purposes, you do not KNOW it; at least in any conscious sense; and you do not have to 'pretend' not to know; because by all experience - most o them anyway - you are confronted with choices. . ..
Every action has it's own consequences. . .in that you have a 'field' of choices; and with that. . .a field of consequences, or effects of each decision/choice.
Perhaps we/God choose our life's goals/undertakings. . .tasks. . .learning situations and we have a map of sorts to accomplish such. . the map markings are a kind of pre-destination - as your goals and destination are set.
But like a map to San Francisco and where you have plotted your course and arrival time; you still have a choice to alter the route as you make your way; a long walk. . .a shorter ride. . .back forty or interstate. . .you change the scenery et al; your feet hurt, so you stop and rest or alter course. . .and can do so by choice. . .
I think the 'pre-destination is that your 'destination' does not change; your map remains with the charted course. . .but so is marked with other possibilities for the journey and with changes in arrival time, perhaps. . .and think 'here'. . . is the 'catch-22 of choices' i .e.Free Will. . .
Just a thought and IMHO, of course.
Or perhaps instead of a 'map'. . .we have a goal and are handed a maze to get there. . .a 'pre-destination, for sure and a real test of 'will'. LOL. . .
That's fine, but it is NOT your place to tell me what I do and do not know. I did not make the comment to be argued, and yet your post certainly indicates such..Just my humble opinion...
Excellent post cricket! Interesting subject to think about.
I'm all for it!
Or not...
Perhaps I should have said 'we know/do not know' inasmuch as I was generalizing i.e. using an 'impersonal' you as in a 'collective we'. . .so to speak.
Was not meant in anyway as an attack of your knowledge per se or your perspective but only as a consideration for general discussion. . .which I certainly enjoy and assumed that was the point of this. . .personal attack was never on my agenda.
Was not telling you 'personally' what you know and do not know. . .only 'you' know that for sure. Perhaps I should have said 'we know/do not know' inasmuch as I was generalizing i.e. using an 'impersonal' you as in a 'collective we'. . .so to speak.
Was not meant in anyway as an attack of your knowledge or perspective but only as a consideration for general discussion. . .which I certainly enjoy and assumed that was the point of this. . .personal attack was never on my agenda.
Consider a hypothetical. Suppose you have a special "Prophet Box" that allows you to see into the future. And suppose one day that you look into the box and see that your best friend will be hit by a bus crossing Main Street tomorrow at 1:32 p.m.
You decide to warn your friend. Assuming he has both the desire not to be hit by a bus and faith in the Prophecy Box, he chooses to avoid Main Street tomorrow afternoon.
If he successfully avoids being hit by the bus, then your Prophecy Box cannot really show you the future.
If he ends up getting hit by the bus on Main Street, despite his choice not to be there, then he does not really have free will.
Thus it would seem that a perfect knowledge of the future is incompatible with free will.
So maybe you are right that we do not have free-will because when things are prophesied they occurred. True, somethings can be averted. Take Nineveh that repented at Jonah's preaching were spared judgment. They chose a change of course and averted destruction. Just like Christ said some places he did not many mighty works because of their unbelief. But the amazing thing is swerving of disaster or going straight in is determined.
One great illustration is King Jehoshaphat had decided to followed wicked King Ahab into battle which was not God's will. The Syrian saw and thought he was King Ahab. Jehoshaphat cries to God and a amazing thing happens-God moves them to depart from him. The next verse says something even more amazing. They perceive that he is not Ahab and move away. Later, an unidentified soldier shoots his bow at random at a soldier who happens to be King Ahab disguised later on killing him. Notice God moved the troops through their own perception and Ahab has the "bad luck".
You dont know what you dont know. ...and we dont know a lot.
Logophile: "Thus it would seem that a perfect knowledge of the future is incompatible with free will."
It all depends on WHOSE perfect knowledge and WHOSE free will. It is a matter of perspective.
Thought perhaps that was true. And so, you must remember NEVER to use, "you," with a post that was not directed to you. When you do, a subtle accusation is made. You must be extremely careful with the words used. Make certain there is no hidden agenda with a post. The reader will pick up on it, quicker than you can blink. And that may cause you to be labelled as a nut...
. . .absolutely, care with words is important. . .
. . .and of course a 'two-way street'. . .we need to be careful when reading so as to not overreach or overreact as well. . .and given that posts are usually done in a hurry, I always start with the benefit of the doubt and work from there. . .
Either way. . .a patience with words is helpful. . .
Okay, now you listen, and listen good. You are walkin' a mighty fine line. Mostly because you say one thing that is right, but can't stand the fact that I should tell you something you don't know or haven't paid attention to. So, you turn right around and add something that totally negates the positive, and you don't have an account to be makin' withdrawals like that. Either way, forget about trying to tell me to watch my words or analysis. And, if you decide to do a rebuttal post, you're done...
I already do to much to push my fellow man away from me. The argument seems to be immaterial. Fretting over something like this, we might as well argue about the number of angels that will fit on the head of a pin? Or whether God is so powerful that he could create a stone so massive that even he could not lift it. Rather than wasting time on a fruitless discussion, we should focus on wiser investments of our "talents." While we may avoid losing our master's investment by focusing on the why, we do nothing to reach our full potential.
Like after Katrina, who cares about blame, grab a shovel, water, a hammer, some nails, get in the truck and start helping.
With all respect (I know I can get a little passionate at times).
... which I spend pretty much zero time thinking about.
This question is settled for me by Matthew 22.14:
"For many are called, but few [are] chosen."
My understanding is that God has determined ahead of time whom He will "call" at any particular time, but ultimately being "chosen" indicates something on the order of a qualifying process.
This is verifed by Revelation 14:12:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith (testimony) of Jesus."
Chosen for what? Qualifying for what?
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4.
Let me explain what I mean by determined and free-will. It means that God has determined to give us the freedom. It does not mean that God approves and endorses our behavior when against His will.
Ex. Herod slaughtering all the males after not having the wisemen return to Jerusalem. This was prophesied in Jeremiah. "Weeping in Rama" Herod chose to murder all these babies but it had been told years before that it was going to happen. So it was a prophesied event but Herod still made the decision to do what he did.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.