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To: vladimir998
Spend a few months reading some good histories of the Middle Ages, and then we can have an informed conversation. Secular clergy in the Middle Ages had no education. There only requirement was to say the Mass. They lived with woman and had children with them. All of this was accepted by the villagers. This is all very well documented by historians of that period.

You are projecting the Counter Reformation onto the Middle Ages. You will need to set aside you religious prejudices to look at the facts of history objectively.

20 posted on 09/02/2006 4:49:24 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

"Spend a few months reading some good histories of the Middle Ages, and then we can have an informed conversation."

Uh, rocket scientist, as I already noted, I spent well over a decade reading most of the best books ever written about medieval history when I was a graduate student. I have a PhD in Medieval History. Since I already pointed this out to you it is apparent that you didn't even read the post I wrote. This says more about your literacy and intentions to learn the truth than anything you can opine about medieval clerics. Thank you for so easily proving you have absolutely no interest in being well informed.

"Secular clergy in the Middle Ages had no education."

(sigh) Then who were all of those clerics at all of those medieval universities? Who were all of those students at all of those cathedral schools? How about all of the students at all of those monastic schools? Who were they?

Your reply is absurd! It isn’t even rational.


University of Bologna – founded 1088
University of Paris – founded 1150
University of Oxford – founded before 1167
University of Modena – founded 1175
University of Regio – founded 1188
University of Vicenza – founded 1204
University of Cambridge – founded 1209
University of Palencia – founded 1212
University of Arezzo – founded 1215
University of Salamanca – founded 1218
University of Padua – founded 1222
University of Naples – founded 1224 by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor
University of Toulouse – founded 1229
University of Siena – founded 1240
University of Valencia – founded 1245
University of Piancenza – founded 1248
University of Valladolid – founded 1250
University of Sevilla – founded 1254
Sorbonne (at the University of Paris) – founded 1257
University of Montpellier – founded 1289
University of Coimbra – founded 1290 (in Lisbon)
University of Rome La Sapienza – founded 1303
University of Macerata – founded 1290
University of Lisbon – founded 1290
University of Lérida – founded 1300
University of Avignon – founded 1303
University of Orléans – founded 1306
University of Perugia – founded 1308
University of Coimbra – founded 1308
University of Treviso – founded 1318
University of Cahors – founded 1332
University of Angers – founded 1337
University of Pisa – founded 1338
University of Grenoble – founded 1339
Charles University of Prague – founded 1348
University of Florence – founded 1349
University of Perpignan – founded 1350
Jagiellonian University, Krakow – founded 1364
University of Vienna – founded 1365
University of Pécs – founded 1367
University of Erfurt – founded 1379
University of Heidelberg – founded 1385
University of Cologne – founded 1388
University of Ferrara – founded 1391 by papal bull
University of Zadar – founded 1396
University of Fermo – founded 1398 by papal bull
University of Leipzig – founded 1409
University of St Andrews – founded 1413
University of Rostock – founded 1419
University of Leuven – founded 1425
University of Barcelona – founded 1450
University of Glasgow – founded 1451 by papal bull
University of Greifswald – founded 1456
University of Basel – founded 1460
University of Bratislava (Universitas Istropolitana) – founded 1465
University of Uppsala – founded 1477
University of Copenhagen – founded 1479
University of Aberdeen – founded 1495

“There only requirement was to say the Mass.”

No. They also officiated at baptisms, weddings, funerals, blessings, recording of records, handled parish roles, parish accounts, etc. You are completely clueless about much.

“They lived with woman and had children with them.”

Some did. Some didn’t. Especially after the tenth and eleventh centuries when celibacy started to be demanded by bishops and councils.

“All of this was accepted by the villagers.”

To some extent yes. But you are forgetting that even peasants knew when the priest was not living up to his vows. Common people begged St. Francis to stop their local priest from violating his vows by openly living with a woman. They all expected St. Francis to rebuke the priest, in other words, chew him out. He didn’t, but he did stop the priest nonetheless. There are many examples of common people, yes, even peasants being upset that their local priest was not celibate when he was supposed to be.

“This is all very well documented by historians of that period.”

Again, you are simply throwing up stereotypes.

“You are projecting the Counter Reformation onto the Middle Ages.”

No, I am not. I know the difference. Every example or fact I cited IS FROM BEFORE THE PROTESTANT REVOLUTION. Get a clue. If you can’t tell the difference between generally before 1500 and well after the mid-century then you have a serious problem.

“You will need to set aside you religious prejudices to look at the facts of history objectively.”

I did. It was called graduate school. That’s what made me a Catholic. I showed up with religious prejudices. I left educated and Catholic. Wish you could claim the same.


21 posted on 09/02/2006 5:28:11 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: stripes1776

The quality of the clergy depended on the quality of the Lord who provided them with a living. Pluralism also left many livings in the hands of the untrained. But you are also neglecting the role of the religious orders.
They went from place to place providing the preaching that was neglected by the local clergy, almost armed with Paris Bibles in the pockets of their gowns, thousands of which are still preserved, to use as the basis of their sermons. San Bernadino preaches to huge crowds, much as Wesley was to do in 18th Century England. Preaching by university trained clergy was available in the larger churches. Luther is the type of this sort of priest.


31 posted on 09/02/2006 11:00:44 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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