Posted on 11/27/2006 5:24:30 AM PST by xzins
This caucus of moderate Calvinists, i.e., "Calvinists in the Tradition of Arminius" is called to order ONLY FOR CTA's or their FRIENDS in regard to this question. What is position of us CTA's on the Tulip.... Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverence of the Saints?
Two answers have been forthcoming to date. P-Marlowe has offered one, and I have offered another.
The TULIP was developed as a reaction to the Remonstrants and belief in the petals of the Tulip was not necessary in order to be a Calvinist at the time of Arminius. Arminius subscribed to the Belgic confession, and not the TULIP.
That being said, Grace is irresistible to those who do not resist it. IOW all who are saved are saved because, for them, it was obviously irresistible. Men are totally depraved inasmuch as they are incapable of coming to Christ merely by the exercise of their own will and can only come to christ if they are made able by the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit. Even Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement and it was not to be found in the earlier confessions. Those who have been chosen and elected will perservere to the end and election is conditioned by God and not by men. All who believe shall be saved, so in that sense God has himself conditioned salvation on belief.
1. I believe in irresistible prevenient grace and resistable saving grace.
2. Total Depravity. There is no disagreement at all with Total Depravity.
3. Limited Atonement. The atonement is efficient only for those who believe and are elect, therefore limiting it. It is sufficent for all. (As already mentioned, God's foreknowledge is aware that not all will actually be saved.)
4. Perseverence of the Saints. Those who do not believe will not be saved. Those who do believe and continue to believe demonstrate the reality of their born again experience.
5. Unconditional Election. Seeing that our Lord was slain from the foundation of the earth, there is no one saved who is not elect in Him from before creation.
It is not intended to be a polemic from any participant or "guest."
Please offer any suggestions or ideas that you might have.
It's all Greek to me, but here's a BTTT, anyway :-).
This thread is intended to be a discussion of the issues of moderate calvinism and/or Calvinists in the Tradition of Arminius.
It's too bad I have to work for a living as this sounds like an interesting thread. I'll be reading as time allows.
Thank you.
God demonstrates his kindness to everyone in so many ways. See Acts 14. He sends rain, gives crops, happinesses, and opportunities. He also convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
He has put his law in the heart of everyone as a prod to their conscience. The heavens declare the glory of God and the earth shows His handiwork.
All of these gifts are given to all humanity without distinction and they are not able to escape from them. God brings them upon people whether they will it or not. They are irresistible testimonies to His grace and goodness.
That's what we mean by irresistible prevenient grace.
Who qualifies as a "friend," xzins?
Since this is a brainstorming session, it will be those who will pursue the objective of positively demonstrating the calvinism of Arminius.
That's all I needed to know. Enjoy your thread.
Oh. That makes sense!
The following memorial to Arminius was penned by fellow professor, Simon Episcopius. It is significant in that it reveals much of Arminius' own mind about his relationship to the Reformation. Of note in his conclusion are these words:
****In conclusion therefore I say, that Arminius acted in all things with perfect good faith and candour; that he openly professed the doctrine which he held; that according to his own declaration, he always ingeniously believed this doctrine to be contained in the formularies of the Churches; that he never condemned those formularies;***
MEMORIAL TO JAMES ARMINIUS
Arminius, that servant of Christ, in order to approve himself before God, chose to endure the hatred and contradiction of all mankind, rather than to violate his conscience. He held out to the whole Christian world the ensign of peace and concord, and he wished a commencement to be made in the Reformed Churches. Being a man of prudence and mild in spirit, he perceived that those Churches were distracted and separated from each other in many ways, and that in these days neither measure nor end was observed in making secessions; that endeavours were therefore to be used to induce the contending parties to lay aside animosity, and to sing a funeral song over their unnecessary enmities and quarrels; that every exertion was then to be employed, to take an accurate account of such doctrines as are absolutely necessary, and each party to confine itself within those limits; that, with regard to all the rest, whatever was capable of being tolerated, or did not hinder salvation, should receive toleration; that the rule of Prudence and Charity alone is sufficient for this purpose; and that, without these, continual strife and hatred must be perpetuated, which would cause the tears of the Church afresh to flow. This was the design of Arminius; and he persisted in it to the close of his life, nothing being such a source of grief and sorrow to him, as the obstinate resistance of those who ought to have shewn themselves the most favourable to this design. Whether it was laudable or not, let those judge who are affected with commiseration at the sight of the whole of Christendom divided into most minute parties: I entertain no doubt myself of its being a pious purpose.
Arminius was too great an admirer and practiser of that Apostolic direction, Let your moderation be known to all men, ever to indulge in bitter or reviling expressions. He will never be detected in having traduced, much less in having rendered odious and infamous, or in having injured by a single word, those whom Capellus calls "the Reformers." Indeed, no one ever dissented from them with greater moderation. Let the writings of Arminius be inspected, and my assertion will be found correct. Such, in fact, was the modesty of this pious and learned man, that he thought all errors, especially those which he accounted to be injurious to piety, ought to be attacked with boldness and according to the meaning of their authors; but that the wanderers in error themselves ought to be treated with mildness and according to the mind of Christ Jesus. For he knew how easy it is to commit a mistake, how unjust to visit with reproaches him who is in error, how disgraceful to speak evil of a pious man, and how necessary it is for a Christian, and particularly for a Bishop, to be no striker, but patient (1 Tim. iii.3), gentle to all men, and in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves (2 Tim. ii.24). Such were his sentiments, such was his conduct--most opposite to those opprobrious arts which Capellus employs!
Arminius was as averse to a new Confession, as he was to a schism. Those things which he considered as desiderata in the Church, he wished to be corrected by the Church and within herself; and he thought those things could be amended there more efficaciously and with greater safety. From new Confessions he did not hope for a remedy, but feared more dangerous paroxysms. To adhere to the scriptures alone; or, where any Confession was established, to tolerate certain improper phrases, solely through a hatred of schism, and either to reconcile them with scripture by the benefit of a mild interpretation, or to correct them by the aid of a lawful revision was, in his opinion, a much better course than to expend labour upon new Confessions which might serve to foment schisms. For as a prudent man he perceived, in this age fruitful in strifes and quarrels, the usual consequence is, that wherever new Confessions are formed, there the minds of men are separated and distracted by their different opinion. At no period of his life did he assert, much less did he contend, that the article on Predestination in the Dutch Confessions was false or bore evident marks of falsehood, that it contained heresies or abounded with them, much less that it abounded with a multitude of them: As an unexceptionable proof of this it may be stated that he always endeavoured to establish his sentiments by many and strong arguments from the Dutch Confession itself; and he professed that he was prepared to retire from the ministry, if at any time, either in secret or in public, he had spoken or written any thing contrary to that formulary. He always denied that the sentiments which he opposed were those of the Confession: He said, they were those of some particular divines, from which he was perfectly at liberty to dissent.
Arminius never said that the whole human race was at the same time reconciled and healed by the satisfaction of Christ. He was a man of greater accuracy, than to speak in that manner. He has said that mankind were reconciled by the satisfaction of Christ: But who, except a dotard, would say that they were healed? Arminius only teaches that God for Christ's sake bestows on those who are reconciled to Him through Christ a new power [ability] when they are called by the Gospel, that they may be enabled to free themselves from that servitude, provided they use diligent endeavours, and be not wanting to themselves and to the grace of God. But he who teaches this, teaches a doctrine contrary to that which Capellus wishes. For such a man teaches that those who are reconciled are still under the servitude of sin; but that, by the aid of grace which is newly bestowed on them by God, it is possible for them to be gradually healed of that servitude. For it is one thing to impart an ability to any one, by which he may come out of his servitude: It is another thing, actually to come out of servitude, or to be healed of it.
Those persons who have lived with Arminius, and who, as the phrase is, have eaten a bushel of salt in his company, can bear testimony to his candour and integrity. France, your country, never produced a spirit possessed of greater integrity. Unless he had been studious of these virtues, he would neither have incurred the chance of so much hatred, nor have subjected himself to the peril of such obstinate contradiction. If he occasionally used prudence, out of a greater regard to his own conscience and to the public peace, he did nothing more than what was the duty of a good man and a Christian. He could do this, and he actually did it, without any design to deceive; nay, he did it with the design to approve himself the more to God, who alone inwardly inspects the heart, and to whom, he knew, a hypocrite is more hateful than a man that is openly wicked: For when a bad man wishes to appear a good one, he is then the worst of all.
What could any one desire that was more open, candid, and nervous, than the Declaration of Arminius before the states of Holland? I wish his adversaries had, with equal candour and ingenuousness, declared their sentiments on Reprobation, at the Hague Conference, and more recently at the Synod of Dort! But if ever any persons employed dissimulation, or declined to disclose their sentiments, they were certainly the members of those two assemblies. Indeed it is a thing common in its occurrence--for a man, when he perceives himself to be guilty of a crime, to use indecent haste in boldly charging it upon others, that he may seem to be at the greatest possible distance from it himself.
In conclusion therefore I say, that Arminius acted in all things with perfect good faith and candour; that he openly professed the doctrine which he held; that according to his own declaration, he always ingeniously believed this doctrine to be contained in the formularies of the Churches; that he never condemned those formularies; and that he never disclosed, except in the assembly of the States and at their command, the considerations which he had marked down according to the decree of the Supreme Magistrate and at the request of the Synod. Capellus therefore, without any just cause, laments the absence of candour in this most candid breast.--Examen Thesium I. Capelli
Thank you. I have pinged you to the memorial to Arminius written by a fellow professor.
If I didn't know the context of these sentences, I would think he was describing the Union County Commissioners and Board of Education!
The lesson, I guess, is that in every generation, people who are honest with themselves and straightforward with others are few and far between.
why characterize it like that ?
I think assisting him in exploring his premise is a better phrase
how was thanksgiving ?
I thought only prayer and devotion threads were protected Caucus threads?
I have evaluated this thread by a thought experiment, i.e. would it be a legitimate use of a caucus for the Orthodox to begin a research thread to consolidate their views on the office of the Pope. My conclusion was that as long as the Orthodox caucus did not become anti-Catholic, the caucus would be allowed but if the conversation suggested in any way that Catholicism was inferior to Orthodox belief then the caucus would be broken and the Catholics would be welcome to respond.
Applying that thought experiment to this thread, I have observed that so far the thread has not become anti-Calvinist or suggested in any way that Calvinism is inferior and thus does not violate that rule for caucuses. As long as the discussion stays with what this caucus believes and avoids discussing other beliefs, it should be a closed caucus thread.
However, should any replies become “anti” another confession then the caucus will be broken and the discussion should be considered "open" to rebuttals.
The selected name for this confession “Calvinists in the Tradition of Arminius (CTA)” is no doubt considered confrontational to some. But it is only a label and although a label like “The Moderates” would be gentler, most any label would be ok with me, e.g. “XYZ Caucus.”
Salvation, there are three types of closed threads: devotionals, prayer threads and caucuses. All of them are treated like they are occurring behind the closed doors of a church or chapel. All other threads are open like a town square – challenges, protests and ridicule can be made in the town square.
Caucus threads must never be used like a base camp to conduct sniper warfare against another confession. They cannot be “anti” any other confession. Caucuses may be used for church business, discussion of liturgy, missions, beliefs, teaching, etc.
Calvin and Arminius are trying to find each other in a house of mirrors.. wandering thru concave and convex mirrors.. Am reminded of the Apostles arguing on who is the greatest in the Kingdon of the Heavens... Jesus brought a little child and said, "One like this is the greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens". Children would not argue such things..
Arminians are exactly where they need to be, and so are Calvinists.. Both are semantically hiding from the other.. Hide and Seek... BOOO!.. your "it"..
Or...both sides could shut their eyes, cover their ears and sing la la la over and over again to make the argument go away. But then at some point you must understand that God gave them eyes to see, ears to hear, brains to think, and mouths to discuss these things.
Just for informational purposes, would misrepresentation of another group's or individual's positions or beliefs constitute "anti" behavior?
Really?.. Thats why he did it?... To parse minutia?..
I would take issue with your term minutia in this context. Being a 5-point Calvinist myself, I believe this debate is part of God's sovereign plan for His elect, to teach them to study the Scriptures diligently and to love their Christian brothers and sisters while they grow in their knowledge of His truths through study and even debate. This is a great thread discussion that, while I desagree with some of their conclusions, is very helpful and interesting. We can all learn from the clear articulation of each perspective. So I am happy to defend my fellow Christians and rejoice in their love for Scripture and their belief in its authority.
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