Posted on 02/21/2007 8:27:10 AM PST by DouglasKC
The fact that he mentioned that they all died is part of a larger thought.
This is true, except for Enoch (and Elijah by omission). Verse 5 exists, as does its companion in Genesis. It wasn't until HWA that the status of Elijah or Enoch has ever been questioned. There are sufficient passages for me to take the Bible at what it says, the Enoch and Elijah did not die. Perhaps I am wrong, but I will take my faith from the Book over the doctrine of a man every day of the week.
If we don't "really" need the death and resurrection of Christ as an atonement then his incarnation must have been nothing more than a magic trick, a demonstration, a show. I don't believe that.
I really don't know where to begin here. Both Covenants were/are designed to draw men closer to God, through Jesus. Jesus' sacrifice was for known at the foundation of the world. Are you saying that those who believed prior to Jesus' coming down here believed in vain and have no hope of salvation? Good grief, man, Enoch and Elijah actually saw Jesus, they walked with Him, and he took them. Jesus and God do what they like. With God, all things are possible. Is that so hard to comprehend?
There's not much examples from Enoch on how to live contained in scripture.
We both know that Genesis is a very condensed book of the Bible, however, there is enough about Enoch to know that we ought to emulate him:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Do you try to walk with God? Have you done things in your life in order to try to adhere to God's Word spoken through the Bible? Do you try to please God in your daily walk? Do you keep the Sabbath? Have you removed the pagan holidays from your house? Do you post the most controversial articles available here on FR for all the world to see trying to spread truth? Don't these things fit the underlines verses above? I sure think so.
We know that the bible speaks over and over about death being a sleep. That the dead know nothing. That there is nothing until the resurrection. Enoch and Elijah are one of the few scriptures that are misinterpreted in an attempt to overthrow this clear biblical teaching. I suspect that this was done in order to prove the doctrine of the immortal soul and also to justify the doctrine that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven.
Those of us who believe that Enoch and Elijah did not die aren't the ones doing the interpreting, we're just reading. Sometimes we can run so wild with doctrine that we think God must do X or Y. I have a humble approach. I take stuff on faith and understand that even the Saints who wrote the Bible didn't know it all, so how can we possibly know it all? We will get our explanation at the Resurrection, but God certainly doesn't owe us one. He will explain it because of His Grace, not our worth.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
For our benefit, Doug. The Bible was written for us so we can persevere. You'll notice God very seldom, if ever, said "I sawest that coming". He wrote the Bible so we can have a shot at understanding it. Existentialism is a relatively new term, amigo.
Notice in the following verses:
Deu 31:20 "For when I bring them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and are satisfied and become prosperous, then they will turn to other gods and serve them, and spurn Me and break My covenant.
Jos 23:16 "When you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you."
These verses don't say "if you break the covenant", they say "when you break the covenant".
Very true, dear brother in Christ!
But then I've been wrong before.
At the transfiguration, it was Moses and Elijah.
John is told in Revelation that he would "prophesy again."
It is given unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. The 2 witnesses are killed, so they'd have to be killable by humans.
And perhaps that call to "come up here" is the rapture, not just for those dead ones, but also the promised rapture for all of us Christians. (I think the mid-tribbers believe this.)
Very true, but does that mean that Lazarus is still around, doomed to immortality until the Second Coming? Probably not (though I've seen that idea made into good fiction), and where there is one exception to a general rule, there can certainly be two.
Personally, I lean towards the second witness being Moses, but I would be neither surprised nor disappointed if it turns out to be Enoch instead.
My only problem with it being Moses is that the witnesses are killed, therefore whatever bodies they have at the time would have to be mortal bodies. If Moses has a body now, it is immortal. Enoch and Elijah both took their mortal bodies into the presence of God. They have not yet had their appointments with death.
Hey Buggs, where have you been lately?
I agree with you, the two witnesses in Revelation will be Enoch and Elijah because their bodies were taken and have yet to die the first death.
There is no record of John's death. Jesus said to Peter, "If I desire him to continue until I come..."
John responds that that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't die.
(But it doesn't mean he would.)
He is told, "YOU will prophesy AGAIN."
Satan and Michael contested the body of Moses....seems to indicate he died, but not necessarily. I've always assumed that Lazarus was in his earthly body and that it would have to die. I've thought that perhaps Enoch was translated already, and that, therefore, his body could not now die.
Let me make a correction to your understanding here. Whatever Armstrong may have been, he didn't make up stuff whole cloth. Howerver, he DID take little known information and make it well known. Critics would say he plagiarized ideas.
The status of Elijah and Enoch has been questioned long before Armstrong. Many Jewish commentators on the OT believe that yes indeed, Enoch died. Gills exposition says:
"and he was not; not that he was dead, or in the state of the dead, as Aben Ezra and Jarchi interpret the phrase following: for God took him, out of the world by death." There's also an interesting article here
Here's an excerpt:
" This belief about Enoch and Elijah being taken alive into heaven does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament. It first makes its appearance in Jewish thought and literature during the intertestamental period. That is, this belief doesn't appear until AFTER the Jews return from the seventy year long Babylonian Captivity. "
I don't think we're making much progress here, so I'll close with another scripture that proves that Enoch, or anyone else, is immortal:
1Ti 6:13 I charge you before God (who makes all things alive) and in the sight of Christ Jesus (who witnessed the good confession to Pontius Pilate),
1Ti 6:14 that you keep the commandment without spot and without blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 6:15 For He in His own time will reveal who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
Scripture says that only Christ is immortal. Enoch's time has not yet come.
You're welcome to have the last word.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
The last word(s) would be:
I don't know.
A Miracle.
I meant ultimately. Do you think they died again or ascended?
Not necessarily. Was Lazarus' body immortal? There was also some irregularity about his burial that Jude reports (v. 9), which may or may not mean anything in regards to our current discussion.
Hey Buggs, where have you been lately?
A combination of things. I've been hunting for work (I've got a good tech writing job lead on the line right now, so please keep me in prayer) and spending a lot of time in the evenings working on the synagogue and in the days working on a revamp of one of the ministry websites. I also went through a breakup, which killed my energy for a while, so I've just been lurking a lot. Now I'm dating a nice Jewish girl (I'm sure everyone's shocked--and yes, of course she's Messianic), so some of the energy for FR-style debate is coming back.
Xzins, I like your point about John, though I'd point out that through the Revelation he has prophesyed again to kings and nations. On the other hand, that is our lead-in to chapter 11 . . . hmm . . . I'll have to kick that one around for a bit.
Gotta run for now; I'll log back in later tonight.
Your brother in Yeshua,
I had always assumed that they just ascended. They were referenced as "saints" so they obviously went to the same place as Moses and Elijah (who were physically transfigured with Christ on the Mount of Olives if memory serves me correctly).
The Mount of Olives transfiguration was a vision. When that vision was fulfilled, who knows? Personally, I think it was fulfilled when Christ ascended, because the Bible records Moses dying, so he would have needed to be resurrected. It may not have been fulfilled yet, though.
The word "saint" seems to have taken on a new meaning since it was penned by Paul. I seem to remember Paul calling living people saints. Death and canonization being required for saint-hood being invented some time after the close of scripture.
[Deuteronomy 34:5-6] So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. (It is said that Joshua finished the last chapters of Deuteronomy)
[Joshua 1:1-2] Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
I would say that by disputing over the body..... this would indeed indicate that he died. The question always has been in my mind.....Why are they disputing over it? Any ideas?
I think Moses' resting place is a secret so the Israelites wouldn't deify him or turn his tomb into an idol. JMHO.
Kerry is correct....the transfiguration was a vision [Matthew 17:9 KJV ]
Kerry is also correct in the fact that the word "Saints" came along later....so the folks in [Matthew 27:52-53] were probably recently deceased followers of Christ....like Lazarus, becoming Saints after Pentecost. When Matthew wrote his Gospel it was common to refer to the followers as Saints. If these resurrected Saints at the time would have claimed to be Old Testament figures, i.e. Moses, Elijah, etc., no one would have believed them and it would have been recorded as such. Who ever they were....they appeared to be somewhat familiar with the Jerusalem area (verse 53).
They were evidently resurrected back to a physical form as they appeared to many.....and no mention was made of anything immortal with regard to their bodies. This resurrection happened after Christ's resurrection...three days later, (verse 53)....not at his death as some folks misunderstand. I'm sure, like Lazarus, they died again and were buried again.
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