Posted on 02/21/2007 8:27:10 AM PST by DouglasKC
Here ya go!
Source note:
H.W. Armstrong
Beware winds of doctrine...
Hmmm. Abraham's bosom?
A parable?
marck
Elijah was a prophet. He could have written the letter 7 years prior. Keep in mind, Federal Express was still a couple of years out. Prophets get to prophesy about things that happen in the future, that is actually the definition of a prophet, I think.
Elijah is not mentioned in the list of those who died in faith in Hebrews 11. Elijah is the absolute most popular prophet of the OT. Why is he absent?
Why would these guys think Elijah would come save Jesus?
Mat 27:47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
Mat 27:48 Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
Mat 27:49 But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
These guys think Elijah could come back:
Mar 6:15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old."
Here, they say Elijah had appeared, but OTHER prophets had risen from the dead - Elijah not in the "risen from the dead" group:
Luk 9:8 and by some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the prophets of old had risen again.
Mat 17:9 tells them not to tell anyone of the vision.... oh wait a minute, until Jesus had been resurrected. Why then?
Joh 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Sounds like you got me there, huh, but wait....
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Jesus hadn't ascended when he said nobody had ascended. How do you square that one?
Hebrews 11:5 says:
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated--not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to--that he had pleased God well,
Hebrews 11:5 DOES NOT SAY:
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated--not to see [THE FIRST] death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to--that he had pleased God well,
We know that Enoch was a sinner, because he did not always walk with God:
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begot Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begot Methuselah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters:
Enoch walked with God 300 years, but not the 365 years he was alive.
One way to square it is to recognize that Christ appeared in a physical form (although not in an actual human body) many times. He ascended and descended a number of times in his interactions with man. It's documented in the old testament.
The blood of bulls and goats never saved anyone. To believe this, you have to believe, the Enoch and all the folks in the OT are all doomed to hell because Jesus' life had yet to be sacrificed. I personally believe that the plan of salvation was laid out at the foundation of the world, and that the OT saints, especially those who were resurrected when Jesus was, were all saved by His atoning sacrifice looking forward.
The blood of bulls and goats never saved anyone. To believe this, you have to believe, the Enoch and all the folks in the OT are all doomed to hell because Jesus' life had yet to be sacrificed. I personally believe that the plan of salvation was laid out at the foundation of the world, and that the OT saints, especially those who were resurrected when Jesus was, were all saved by His atoning sacrifice looking forward.
No, Paul said they ALL died. Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Isn't it interesting that Elijah, the most popular prophet in the OT, isn't in that list at all?
Not really. The point of the role call of the faithful is to highlight examples of people who had great faith in the promise of eternal life, but didn't receive it.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
The last verse affirms that Enoch was not "made perfect". He sleeps in the grave, awaiting the resurrection, when all of God's saints will be made perfect, complete.
Yes, it is appointed for all men to die once, but that can't possibly mean that all have to die once, does it? Because the people in this verse won't ever die, just like Elijah and Enoch:
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Certainly our physical selfs will cease to exist. What form this takes is unknown. I tend to think of this event as the complete destruction of our physical bodies and nearly instantaneously the creation of our glorified bodies. Either way our physical lives "end", we die.
I agree. Scripture makes perfect sense. Those who lived before the incarnation of Christ KNEW Christ and died in faith. But they did not have their sins forgiven until Christ died. Enoch could not have "gone to heaven" because he was imperfect, an unforgiven sinner. Those who died in faith, knowing Christ, such as David, Enoch, Moses, etc...will be resurrected to glory when Christ returns, just as we will.
I prefer to read the plain scriptures.
No, Doug, they aren't going to die. I don't buy the whole "spirit body" thing, either. When Jesus was resurrected, he actually had the same body that was crucified. The resurrection in Ezekiel 37 is a physical resurrection as well. When we get resurrected, it will be bone to bone, sinew to sinew - a real resurrection.
Nothing in that passage said he did not "walk with God" prior to being 65, but we do know that "all have sinned."
The plain scriptures never say that Enoch went to heaven. They never say that Enoch had eternal life. They simply say that God took him and scripture doesn't define what that entails.
Spirit body doesn't have to mean an invisible, ethereal something of no substance. We don't know what a "spiritual body" is, but we know that's what the saints of God will have when Christ returns:
Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
This is the "first resurrection", the resurrection of the saints. There IS a physical resurrection, as pointed out in Ezekiel, but this corresponds to the second, or general resurrection:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The second death has no power over those in the first resurrection because they are eternal. The second death DOES have power over those in the general resurrection, the resurrection that occurs after the thousand years, because it is a resurrection to physical life.
When Jesus was resurrected, he actually had the same body that was crucified.
Can't be. Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God. He was changed, given a glorified, spiritual body.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
Your source's definition of "Metatithimi" is incorrect. It does not mean simply to "transfer." It means to transpose, to change, or to swap one thing for another.
Note that of the other biblical uses of this word, none suggests movement:
Jude 4: For there are certain men, crept in unawares, who, before old old ordained to this condemnation: ungodling men turning ("transforming") the grace of our God into lasciviousness.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed ("transformed") from him that calls you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood has been changed ("transformed"), there is made a necessity a change ("transformed") also of the law.
It's an understandable mistake the author makes. "Tithimi" means to lay, put, fix or establish. "Meta" means to change. So doesn't "Meta-Tithimi" mean to change where something is put?
Not really. "Tithimi" means "put" more in the sense of assigning a place to something. Meta-tithimi, then, means to change where something belongs, or, by extension, to change the status of something. That's why the word, "translate" was used in Latin, not "transfer," which would have meant what your author means.
Even as such, however, the bible doesn't make clear that Enoch lived forever. Although he was possibly somewhere other than a grave, he was certainly not in Heaven in the sense that he was standing before the beatific vision of the Risen Christ, for Christ had not yet been enthroned in Heaven.
The prevailing notion that Enoch was not in the grave comes from the Book of Enoch. The Catholic Church (and, following it, the Protestant churches) has not asserted that the Book of Enoch is necessary as a source of doctrine, so it is not in the Catholic or Protestant bibles (although it is, IIRC, in the Coptic bible). The bible, however, does quote from the Book of Enoch, in the Epistle of Jude:
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, 'Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.'"
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