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To: DouglasKC; Diego1618
You might want to reconsider using HWA as a source for doctrine. This is going to look vaguely familiar to Diego.


Elijah was a prophet. He could have written the letter 7 years prior. Keep in mind, Federal Express was still a couple of years out. Prophets get to prophesy about things that happen in the future, that is actually the definition of a prophet, I think.

Elijah is not mentioned in the list of those who died in faith in Hebrews 11. Elijah is the absolute most popular prophet of the OT. Why is he absent?

Why would these guys think Elijah would come save Jesus?
Mat 27:47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
Mat 27:48 Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
Mat 27:49 But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."

These guys think Elijah could come back:

Mar 6:15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old."

Here, they say Elijah had appeared, but OTHER prophets had risen from the dead - Elijah not in the "risen from the dead" group:

Luk 9:8 and by some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the prophets of old had risen again.

Mat 17:9 tells them not to tell anyone of the vision.... oh wait a minute, until Jesus had been resurrected. Why then?

Joh 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Sounds like you got me there, huh, but wait....

Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Jesus hadn't ascended when he said nobody had ascended. How do you square that one?

Hebrews 11:5 says:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated--not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to--that he had pleased God well,

Hebrews 11:5 DOES NOT SAY:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated--not to see [THE FIRST] death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to--that he had pleased God well,

7 posted on 02/21/2007 9:18:08 AM PST by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: kerryusama04
To believe that Enoch was "saved", went to heaven, whatever, you have to believe that this was done without the atoning death and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, without which he was never forgiven for his sins.

We know that Enoch was a sinner, because he did not always walk with God:

Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begot Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begot Methuselah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters:

Enoch walked with God 300 years, but not the 365 years he was alive.

8 posted on 02/21/2007 9:21:56 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: kerryusama04
Joh 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Sounds like you got me there, huh, but wait....
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Jesus hadn't ascended when he said nobody had ascended. How do you square that one?

One way to square it is to recognize that Christ appeared in a physical form (although not in an actual human body) many times. He ascended and descended a number of times in his interactions with man. It's documented in the old testament.

9 posted on 02/21/2007 9:27:29 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: kerryusama04
Why is verse 13 there if they all died? What Paul is saying is that Enoch did not die, but these other dudes did.

No, Paul said they ALL died. Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Isn't it interesting that Elijah, the most popular prophet in the OT, isn't in that list at all?

Not really. The point of the role call of the faithful is to highlight examples of people who had great faith in the promise of eternal life, but didn't receive it.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.

The last verse affirms that Enoch was not "made perfect". He sleeps in the grave, awaiting the resurrection, when all of God's saints will be made perfect, complete.

Yes, it is appointed for all men to die once, but that can't possibly mean that all have to die once, does it? Because the people in this verse won't ever die, just like Elijah and Enoch:

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Certainly our physical selfs will cease to exist. What form this takes is unknown. I tend to think of this event as the complete destruction of our physical bodies and nearly instantaneously the creation of our glorified bodies. Either way our physical lives "end", we die.

12 posted on 02/21/2007 9:56:28 AM PST by DouglasKC
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