Posted on 02/21/2007 10:55:24 AM PST by Alex Murphy
GRAPEVINE, Texas (SBT)Pentecostal mega-church pastor T.D. Jakes of Dallas, often criticized for holding a non-trinitarian view of God, will speak for the second time during Fellowship Church of Grapevine's Creative Church Conference (C3) for pastors.
Jakes will appear at the Southern Baptist congregation Feb. 22-23 along with fellow preachers Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, LifeChurch pastor Craig Groeschel of Edmond, Okla., and Houston pastor and former SBC president Edwin Young, father of Fellowship pastor Ed Young.
Jakes is internationally known for his media ministry and as pastor of The Potter's House. He has been featured in numerous news articles, including some by Christian watchdog groups questioning his views on the doctrine of the Trinity.
Orthodox Christianity holds that one God co-exists eternally in the three co-equal persons of the godheadFather, Son and Holy Spirit.
In fact, Young has done a sermon series on the Trinity titled "Tri-God." He said every church should study trinitarian doctrine.
"But our conference is a leadership conference; it's not a theological conference," Young told the Southern Baptist Texan. "We will bring in, and we have brought in, a number of people whom I personally would not agree with theologically. In fact, I think Bishop Jakes is a great communicator, a great leader."
"I love Bishop Jakes, but we've had many people in Fellowship Church over the years ... whom I would not agree with concerning all of their theology," Young said. "We've interviewed people here from Jerry Jones [Dallas Cowboys owner], we're in a series of interviews right now with Hulk Hogan, all sorts of people. But when you have a leadership conference, I think it's important to hear from people in different realms, different companies, different churches. So I embrace it. I think it's a great thing. I don't see it as a negative thing at all."
Young said Jakes' address last year on "Moses' Ten Commandments for Leadership" was enthusiastically received by many he figured to be Southern Baptists.
Jerry Johnson, president of Criswell College in Dallas and a theology professor there, said despite Jakes' well-attested oratory skills, "some [pastors] might not have the discernment to separate the meat from the bones there, and really, to beware of the heresy-and that is a heresy against classic Christianity. We are not talking about a Baptist distinctive or even a Reformation distinctive. That is a heresy going against classic Christianity, the confessions and the creeds.
"Christian fellowship stands and falls on [the trinitarian doctrine]. Partnership in ministry is jeopardized by the heresy of that doctrine, according to First, Second and Third John."
Also, Johnson said it is unwise to divide leadership from theology.
"It's confusing," he said. "Christian leadership and pastoral leadership includes and perhaps should be driven by theology, particularly, 'Who is God? Who is Jesus?' And so it doesn't matter what your techniques of leadership and style of leadership and philosophy of leadership are if you don't know who God is. I think that's an important point. God is the first prerequisite to good Christian leadership."
Young told the Texan he has not discussed the doctrine with Jakes, but might do so in the future.
"We've talked about some other issues," Young said. "We've had great discussions about churches and just the issues that we face, that he faces, and things like that. But you know, I've never talked with him about that. I'm sure one day we will though. And I'll look forward to it."
Jakes' views have been critiqued by several Christian apologetics organizations, including the Christian Research Institute, which broadcasts the "Bible Answer Man" radio program and publishes the Christian Research Journal, which featured a lengthy article on Jakes' theology in 1999.
The journal's editor, Elliot Miller, wrote in a e-mail to the Texan: "The fact that the conference is about leadership rather than theology still begs the question of whether the person participating holds to orthodox theology. We don't only insist on orthodoxy for theological discussion but for all expressions of Christian faith, and especially leadership."
"I think Bishop Jakes is a phenomenal guy," Young said. "I love him. He's doing a great work. ... I don't agree with every single thing theologically, just like with other people we've had over the years at the C3 Conferences. That's my thought."
6
The pursuance of "success" makes for strange bedfellows.
Where can I find what this TD Jakes believes about the Trinity?
"But our conference is a leadership conference; it's not a theological conference," Young told the Southern Baptist Texan. "We will bring in, and we have brought in, a number of people whom I personally would not agree with theologically. In fact, I think Bishop Jakes is a great communicator, a great leader."
Are imams welcome?
**Probably the best bet is to look at Oneness Pentecostalism**
Here's a start:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1779545/posts?page=50#50
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1779545/posts?page=148#148
Remember, Jesus Christ made it clear that the revelation of the Godhead is made known by the Spirit of God. The apostles were witness of that fact.
. DEFINITION
Those who observe oneness theology are known by several different names. They commonly refer to themselves as "Apostolic" or "Jesus' name" churches. Most outsiders refer to them as "oneness," "Jesus-onlys," "modalists," "monarchianists," "Sabellians," etc. By far, the largest oneness group is the United Pentecostal Church International (UPC, or UPCI) which boasts of over 700,000 members in the United States.
Perhaps the easiest way to define oneness theology would be to make some comparisons. First let's compare it to Mormonism. Mormons teach a polytheistic view of God in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each three different Gods. That is three persons in three Gods, one person for each God or what is known as tritheism (a form of polytheism). On the other hand, the oneness pentecostals teach only one person in one God. They believe the Father and the Holy Spirit are merely different "manifestations" or "modes" of the one God, Jesus. This is what is formally called modalism. Next, let's compare what the Bible teaches. As will be shown later, the Bible teaches a Trinity of persons in the one Godhead. That is three persons but only one God. This view is called monotheism, because it holds to the view of only One True God.
The modern day version of oneness theology got its start at a pentecostal camp meeting in April 1913 with one man's "revelation" that baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 2:38) was the only correct way to adhere to Jesus' command to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). This error concerning water baptism led others to a conclusion that Jesus Christ is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Out of this they developed the notion that the trinitarian view of the Godhead was a pagan invention of the early church councils.
As stated above, oneness pentecostals see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as mere "modes" or "manifestations" of God in various activities. During the creation, they see God as being in the "Father" mode; during the incarnation, they see God as being in the "Son" mode; and when working in people, they see God as being in the "Holy Spirit" mode. Any relationship between the Father and the Son is explained as a relationship between the "dual natures" of Jesus, that is between Jesus' divine "nature" and Jesus' human "nature." In other words, when Jesus prays His human "nature" is supposedly speaking to His Divine "nature." They fail to understand that this would mean He was merely talking to Himself. They claim that because "God is one"; any personal relationship between the "modes" of God is not real, but only apparent. As I will show later, this understanding of the Godhead creates a multitude of problems
Oneness pentecostalism has grown to over 17 million adherents worldwide making it perhaps the largest anti-trinitarian movement in the world. (I believe the Mormon church is second with 10 million adherents.) What sets oneness pentecostalism apart from other anti-trinitarian groups is its seeming orthodoxy. Unlike Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses oneness pentecostals teach both that there is one God and that Jesus is fully God. For this reason, many Christians have difficulty seeing the subtle heresies of oneness pentecostalism.
Back to Table of Contents
2. PECULIARITIES
Oneness pentecostals have other peculiar doctrines besides their view of the Godhead. For instance, they also teach the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Furthermore, they teach their own peculiar version of baptismal regeneration. They teach that one must not only be baptized to be saved but one must be baptized only "in the name of Jesus" alone in order to be saved. That is, they deny the salvation of anyone who has been baptized with the Trinitarian formula of "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt.28:19). Oneness pentecostals, further believe that after water baptism one must receive "the gift of the Holy Ghost," evidenced by "speaking in tongues" in order to be truly saved. Oneness theology is further accompanied in most cases by a legalism regarding attire and hygiene. These rules may deviate slightly from church to church but overall they are held as the "standard of holiness" by oneness pentecostals. In most cases, women are required to wear skirts or dresses, but never pants or slacks. Women are not allowed to cut their hair. Women are not allowed to wear jewelry or makeup. Men are not allowed to have either long hair or facial hair. No one is allowed to wear shorts, or anything that would expose the legs. There is also the issue of sleeve length. Most teach that a sleeveless shirt would be wrong to wear, without mandating how long the sleeve should be. Another church may mandate that sleeves be no shorter than the elbow, with others stipulating that they must be all the way to the wrist. Some will teach that your salvation is at stake if you do not abide by these rules.
Back to Table of Contents
3. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY
A. THE TRINITY IN A/G DOCTRINE
The following is quoted from the Assembly of God Statement of Fundamental Truths :
THE ONE TRUE GOD
The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM," the Creator
of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as
embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
(Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10, 11; Matt. 28:19; Luke 3:22).
THE ADORABLE GODHEAD
(a) Terms Defined
The terms "Trinity" and "persons" as related to the Godhead, while not found in the
Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our
immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as
distinguished from "gods many and lords many." We therefore may speak with
propriety of the Lord our God, who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three
person, and still be absolutely scriptural (examples, Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; John
14:16, 17).
(b) Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead
Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific
terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but that this distinction and
relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.
Luke 1:35; 1 Cor 1:24; Matt. 11:25-27; 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; 1 John 1:3,4.
(c) Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not
the Father; and there is that in the Holy Ghost which constitutes Him the Holy Ghost
and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is
the Begotten, and the Holy Ghost is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is
but one Lord God Almighty and His name one. John 1:18; 15:26; 17:11, 21; Zech
14:9.
(d) Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead
The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are never identical as to Person; nor confused
as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation.
The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with
the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the
Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Ghost is from the Father
and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence,
neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the
others. John 5:17-30, 32, 37; John 8:17, 18
(e) The Title, Lord Jesus Christ
The appellation, "Lord Jesus Christ," is a proper name. It is never applied, in the New
Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Ghost. It therefore belongs exclusively to
the Son of God Rom 1:1-3, 7; 2 John 3
(f) The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us
The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only
Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He
is, therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and
man, is "Immanuel," God with us. Matt. 1:23; 1 John 4:2, 10, 14; Rev. 1:13, 17.
(g) The Title, Son of God
Since the name "Immanuel" embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord
Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the
title Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title, Son of God, belongs to the
order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time. Matt. 1:21-23; 2 John
3; 1 John 3:8; Heb. 7:3; 1:1-13.
(h) Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ
Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived
the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to
the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal
Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and
relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement
of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. 2 John 1:9; John 1:1; John 1:2; John 1:14;
John 1:18; John 1:29; John 1:49; 1 John 2:22,23; 1 John 4:1-5 Heb. 12:2.
(i) Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord
The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down
on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having
been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the
Holy Ghost that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become
subject to the Father that God may be all in all. Heb. 1:3; 1 Peter 3:22; Acts 2:32-36;
Rom. 14:11; 1 Cor 15:24-28.
(j) Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son
Wherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the
express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy
in the Holy Ghost to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all
the honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except
those which express relationship (see paragraphs b, c, and d), and thus honor the Son
even as we honor the Father. John 5:22, 23; 1 Peter 1:8; Rev. 5:6-14; Phil. 2:8, 9; Rev.
7:9, 10; 4:8-11
B. THE TRINITY IN THE ATHANASIAN CREED
Why would any "Bible-only" Fundamentalist Protestant object to going against these things?
BTW, there are oodles and oodles of "Oneness Pentecostals" around here.
Why do Protestants object to this idea? Isn't the idea that classic chr*stianity is "baptized heathenism" the classic Protestant position?
"Isn't the idea that classic chr*stianity is "baptized heathenism" the classic Protestant position?"
??????huh
Well, you gave it the ol' college try.
Your 'definition', carefully worded by someone(s), reminds me of a chess game, where one player moves his own pieces, and also moves the other players pieces, saying: "I know where you would put them anyway." So he (she) thinks.
But, I have an advantage. I've been on both sides of the table: the first half of my life on the 'mystery of the trinity' side, the second half on the 'mighty God IN Christ' side (emphasis on the capitalized word 'IN'. Maybe it would be good for you to go back and at least read again my #148 from 'trinity facts').
I can go at length, but not until the weekend. I only have access to the pc briefly during the week.
No one has any discernment anymore. I can't believe how many women fall for TD Jakes just because he exalts women so much.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.