Posted on 03/17/2008 1:17:59 PM PDT by Truth Defender
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”
words of Jesus in John 8:56
Abraham’s body was entombed.
If he didn’t have an immortal soul, how did he see Jesus’ day and rejoice in it?
And claiming that Abraham FOREsaw it is another very WEAK explanation, since the word used is “see”, not “foresee” nor “prophesy” nor “envision”.
I guess it’s hard to amaze me after all these years but I see an answer in Jesus parable of the weeds (tares) and wheat in Matt. chapater 13. The meaning is explained by Jesus later in the chapter. Just as the weeds looked like wheat when they sprouted up together making it impossible to uproot them so throughout much of history it has been difficult to distinguish psuedo-Christians from the true. But Jesus said when the crop was ripe it wouldn’t be difficult. Wheat or weeds? What can one think of leaders who clutch paganism to their bosoms in the name of Christ?
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I think you may have mistaken me for someone else as I’ve never challenged anyone to do anything here nor disallowed anything nor said anything about what day of the week should be, could be the day of rest, sabboth.
And please...enough already of this “ ‘splainin’ ‘ and plowman business. I’m not Lucille Ball and if you’re a farmer say so. I read WorldNetDaily too so I know those same four languages you do.
By the way since the Bible doesn’t use the word “Sunday” I can’t point to any verse that says we should meet on Sunday.
Abraham’s body was entombed.
If he didn’t have an immortal soul, how did he see Jesus’ day and rejoice in it?
And claiming that Abraham FOREsaw it is another very WEAK explanation, since the word used is “see”, not “foresee” nor “prophesy” nor “envision”.
While I can't input the Greek, I can give you a literal rendering of it: "Abraham the father of you was glad that he should see the day of me, and he saw and rejoiced." In other words Abraham looking forward saw the day of the Lord. This expression is not unique. It is forseeing the future. The Prophets did the same thing in forseeing what the future was to bring - the salvation of man.
What I just said is not "weak" but held by multitudes of Biblical Scholars. Even Roman Catholic Scholars. In fact, by Scholars of many different denominations. Even Augustine read it like this.
Having an immortal soul or not does not mean anything in understanding what Jesus said in this verse.
> if you’re a farmer say so.
Actually, I’m even lower on the list of worthwhile professions, a software engineer. Higher than lawyer, but definitely lower than farmer. I’m just an if-then-else kind of guy.
The reference to plowman was in deference to William Tyndale who thought the fundamental precepts of the Bible were simple enough for the barely literate plowman of his day to understand. Tyndale martyred his life that the common plowman might have his own Bible.
Perhaps it wasn’t you, but a challenge was made to locate a scripture that directly expressed “immortal soul” using that term.
I used the day of the week controversy to illustrate that the Scripture does not explicitly move the day of worship from the seventh day to the first day.
> I read WorldNetDaily too so I know those same four
> languages you do.
I do not read WorldNetDaily, so my familiarity with those languages has nothing to do with WND. I’m actually fluent in Portuguese, having spent some time in Brazil, conversational in Italian, because both my parents were born there and spoke it at home, and I’ve spent some time in Russia, as well. I can understand Spanish, because where it’s not like Portuguese, it’s like Italian.
> the Bible doesn’t use the word “Sunday”
You just inadvertently made my point. Try “first day of the week”.
:)
Okay, not too shabby. There have always been leaders who let false teaching be a part of their teaching. Sad, but true.
> What I just said is not “weak” but held by multitudes of
> Biblical Scholars. Even Roman Catholic Scholars. In fact,
> by Scholars of many different denominations. Even
> Augustine read it like this.
I’m not Catholic, and I’m not a “Bible Scholar”.
Your explanation IS weak and fragile.
The clear, plain meaning of this verse must be obscured and shifted in order to interpret it as you have.
If it was a prophesy of Abraham, why did Jesus not just say so?
That’s as valid a question as the one posed about why doesn’t the Bible use the term “immortal soul”?
And my question about where you stand on the divinity of Christ remains unanswered.
My experience has been that those who dismiss the immortal soul as having pagan origins also dismiss the divine nature of Christ as also being pagan in origin.
God threw out the priests from Shiloh, because of the sins of Eli and his sons. Eli’s sons were wicked and immoral men, but Eli did not discipline them.
Have you read the biblical account of creation?
True, but when the Assyrians invaded Israel, the remnant of the Shiloh prists made their way to Anatoth. Through Hilkiah they got their foot back in the door. so to speak. They had influence over King Josiah who restored the “true” worship. It’s a great story.
Yep, wasn't thinking. I meant that we don't "look" like God, for as the Scriptures say, God is a Spirit. We are hardly spirits, we are flesh and blood.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Now if He wasn't fallible, there'd be no point in testing Him, as in Matthew 4:1, "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." There'd also be no point to God anouncing the following about Himself: Matt3:17, "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.""
You're point?
"...find one single verse that says we have an immortal soul" There are many verses. Gen 1:26 is sufficient, since God is a trinity, so too is man. Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,..." Gen 1:26 is backed up in God's own words in John 10:33-37
Sorry, my friend, I don't see any part of these verses saying that mankind has an immortal soul. You are merely resorting to philosophical reasoning that is contradicted by the very plain statement in I Tim. 6:15-16.
"The immortal soul theory was not a part of the early church's beliefs, regardless of what later writers try to make them say." Matthew disagrees and presents what God said about the matter. Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Is he not an early church writer? Does eternal mean, "just for awhile?"
Sorry again, my friend, Mt. 25:46 says absolutely nothing about a man having an immortal soul. I absolutely accept exactly what Jesus said here: at judgment day the righteous will be given immortality, i.e., a life that will never die again; and the wicked will be punished by being thrown into the Lake of Fire to be no more. The punishment is the "second death," and that will last for the same length of time that the righteous live. Death is the opposite of life, it being lifeless.
Yes, Matthew is an early Christian or church writer. However, if you research the term "eternal" you will find that it does not mean what you think it means. I'm not about to get into that discussion because it requires one to spend too much time in endless speculations - no personal reflection on you in particular.
Your explanation IS weak and fragile.
Sorry, I don't recall calling you a "Catholic." And I will agree that you are not a "Bible Scholar." :-)
If it was a prophesy of Abraham, why did Jesus not just say so?
Hmm...who said it was a prophesy? Abraham had the forsight to see the day the Lord would visit his people.
And my question about where you stand on the divinity of Christ remains unanswered.
How about this: Isa. 7:14, 9:6; Mt. 1:23; Jn. 1:1, 14, 6:37-40, 8:57-58, 10:30-33, 12:44-46, 14:6-9, 20:28-29. These verses and passages mean exactly what they say, no more, no less. That is my belief and stand.
Yes, thoroughly and many times. I made a simple mistake and explained it. Does that satisfy you?
Since Christians are not under obligation to keep a weekly sabbath day it hardly matters what day or days of the week one worships though in today’s world Sunday might be convenient as most people are off their secular jobs.
I didn’t challenge you to find a scripture on the soul but since you brought it up: The Hebrew word “nephesh is often translated as “soul”. The use of “nephesh” indicates it had a rather broad meaning as you can research for yourself. But nowhere does it carry the idea of deathlessness or immortality. Quite the contrary as in Ezekiel 18:4. The Hebrew “nephesh” was translated as the Greek “psyche” and continued to have broad application but as before carried no idea of immortality. Jesus said his soul(psyche) was sorrowful unto death. If Jesus soul was immortal what was resurrected? Where was that soul during the three days? Acts says both Christ’s and David’s soul was in “hell” according to the AV translation. Where were they?
These are not difficult questions, a bit of study with what you have available would be enough and when you can answer these simple questions get back with me.
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Our bodies die, our capacity to reason and love is limited and we are incapable of creating ex nihilo. There are other creatures that have been called "like God", one specifically: St. Michael the Archangel who's name means "Who is like God". Now if the Father gave the Angles immortality, and we see that rebellious angles were cast out and not destroyed, than why would He not give the same gift of immortality to the creatures He would give His only Son for in sacrifice?
Your every post on this topic is a mark against the validity of the notion of an invisible church of self guided believers. Your notions about the soul are outside of orthodox Christianity. You should reconsider your line of thinking on this subject. I would remind you that at one time, Arianism was more wide spread than Orthodoxy. The popularity of a position has little to do with it's truthfulness.
Q. If Jesus soul was immortal what was resurrected?
A. His body.
Q. Where was that soul during the three days?
A. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Now I have a question for you.
Was Jesus God incarnate?
Yes or No will suffice.
How else should God be in the proper form to laugh at us? LOL
Jesus said to the penitent thief on the cross, “Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise”. If the thief didn’t have an immortal soul he couldn’t have been with Jesus in Paradise, because his mortal body was thrown on the Jerusalem garbage dump, or at least was buried somewhere on planet Earth.
Matthew 27:50
"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit."
Logic applies. Jesus is God. He had both a body and a spirit. The body is simply the physical machinery of life that supports the spirit. The spirit is the mind and all those things the mind holds and generates. The spirit does not give life to the machinery that is the body. The body through it's functions of life support the existence of spirit. The Holy Spirit, who is God, was supported in this world by the body of Jesus.
The spirit can be identified as the soul. Matt. 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 16:26
"What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"
The soul has an implied body along with it, and that is also true of spirit, because physical machinery that provides for the functions of life is necessary. They are inseparable.
Luke 16:22-
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
"Sorry, my friend, I don't see any part of these verses saying that mankind has an immortal soul. You are merely resorting to philosophical reasoning that is contradicted by the very plain statement in I Tim. 6:15-16."
Gen 1:26 is quite clear, man is made in God's image and likeness- no exceptions. God Himself reaffirmed that in John 10:33-37. The fact that man had a beginning, but God did not, has no effect on that.
1 Tim 6:15-16, "which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen."
Obviously Paul hadn't thought this through before he spoke. In addtion to what was given above, there is the following. Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."
Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
"Mt. 25:46 says absolutely nothing about a man having an immortal soul. I absolutely accept exactly what Jesus said here: at judgment day the righteous will be given immortality, i.e., a life that will never die again; and the wicked will be punished by being thrown into the Lake of Fire to be no more."
Then there's no point to what God said regarding the rich man in Luke 16. Your claim also holds that God would retract his gift of life. As Luke 16 and Matt 10:28 show, that is not the case.
"The punishment is the "second death," and that will last for the same length of time that the righteous live. Death is the opposite of life, it being lifeless."
God disagrees and so does the rich man he spoke of.
"Yes, Matthew is an early Christian or church writer. However, if you research the term "eternal" you will find that it does not mean what you think it means.Yes, Matthew is an early Christian or church writer. However, if you research the term "eternal" you will find that it does not mean what you think it means."
It's a simple word with simple meaning. As it applies to God, it means God's lifetime is +/-∞. As it applies to man, it means +∞.
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