Posted on 03/17/2008 1:17:59 PM PDT by Truth Defender
>> Was Jesus God incarnate?
> How else should God be in the proper form to laugh at us?
> LOL
:)
Well, praise the Lord.
While we may disagree on minutiae, we probably agree on the “seven ones” in Eph 4.
I was reading about that just this morning at this site.
http://www.arvoredavida.org.br/ad.php
As is demonstrated by the current widespread popularity of the spurious works salvation doctrine. The New Testament Sola Vida doctrine doesn't hasn't been RC doctrine for centuries, and it doesn't appear to be in vogue these days in it's pure Pauline form even in some mainline Protestant denominations that once embraced and preached it.
But God plus nothing is a majority and He will have the last word on the subject, as well as on the topic of this thread.
1. Nope. Not according to the apostle Paul in 1 Cor. chapter 15. Surely you didn’t miss what Peter said about both Christ and David’s soul. If you are saying Christ’s fleshly body was resurrected, did he take it to heaven? Was that “soul” that Peter spoke of brought out of “hell” and reunited with the fleshly body?
Nope, your answer has no basis in Scripture. As I pointed out above it contradicts Scripture and it’s unreasonableness shows you have done no study or research on the subject but are tossing out opinions you’ve heard.
Guesses just won’t do either.
2. Nope again! This Scripture says nothing about a soul and is thus no answer at all.
Keep this up and you’re going to really disappoint Mr. Tyndale’s hope. But if you find the answers I’ll be more than happy to responde to any question you have. Thanks!
I'm not sure what you're saying here, can you help me out?
> Keep this up and you’re going to really disappoint Mr.
> Tyndale’s hope.
Yes, of course, I must be a dummy because I disagree with you.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Be sure you use the old saw about how Jesus is talking about a different day sometime in the future. Doesn’t fit the context at all, but it fits your pretext.
Just as you put Abraham seeing Jesus’ day somewhere into the future, when it’s clear from the context, at least to me, that’s not what Jesus meant.
Your mind’s made up, my mind’s made up. No point in pursuing this any further (Titus 3:9).
One more thing, though.
Do you believe that Jesus was God incarnate?
Please, just a yes or no.
Nope again, sorry. Never said you were a “dummy” just that you weren’t doing the research and study you should. It makes no difference whether you agree with me or not as I showed you the Scriptures that were pertinent to the questions. I pointed out why the Scripture you cited was not about the soul yet all this goes right over your head.
And you’ve not thought about this Scripture in Luke enough to ask if Jesus was dead for three days and Peter said his soul was in “hell” how is it He would be with the man in paradise “today”? The man asked to be remembered when Christ came into His kingdom, Was paradise His kingdom? Did Jesus enter into His kingdom that day?
Since the Greek had no comma with “today” the questions above indicate the context. But yet again-you attibute to me things I didn’t say, pretexts and old saws while you offer up Scriptures you evidently haven’t made an effort to understand. I asked two simple questions and look what you answered. Do you want to continue trying or take some time to consider the Scriptures I pointed out?
no
> I pointed out why the Scripture you cited was not about
> the soul yet all this goes right over your head.
Yes, I’m certainly in over my head with somebody as well studied and smart as you.
Jesus said, “To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”
No comma necessary.
Just what it so very plainly says.
Jesus spoke in Luke 16 about the rich man who awoke in the Hell after he died, tormented by the flame, while the beggar Lazarus was carried off by the anjels to enjoy the comfort of Abraham’s bosom.
And there are the souls “under the altar” to whom God is speaking in Revelation.
You and I see these things very differently. We are looking at the same words, but they evoke different meanings because of our different perspectives.
I don’t expect to be able to change your mind, and you won’t be able to change mine.
But you still have not answered the question I’ve been posing to you.
Is Jesus God incarnate?
Please, just a simple yes or no.
> no
Thank you for your candor.
Now I understand why you have the perspective you do.
You are most welcome. Can you now explain why you have the perspective you do? I would like to know as I’ve offered the reasoning behind my perspective or belief. But in any event, good day.
Try Strong’s #1492. Saw, foresaw all allowable.
Actually what Jesus is recorded as saying in a word for word translation from greek is, “And he said to him Amen to you I am saying today with me you will be in the paradise”.
Where the comma is placed depends upon what the translator thinks Jesus was saying, ‘today I am saying this’, or ‘I am saying what will happen today’. Two different things. Considering the other Scriptures I refered to it would seem the former is correct. Word order in koine greek is far less important than in English.
I agree. According to the Greek/English dictionary section of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance there are three Greek words that translate into eternal and/or eternity in English and are found in the Greek NT manuscripts.
There appears to be some minor degree of ambiguity concerning the # 2 word. It is the only one of the three Greek words that can be translated into an English word or phrase that can define any period of time less than eternity, although the word "age" which is the preferred usage in the listed preferences, can be used to either specify a period of time as in the phrase "the age of reason" or to imply "eternity" as in this phrase of an old hymn, "throughout endless ages". IOW it can just as easily be used to mean "eternity" or "eternal" without doing harm to it's preferred use as "age".
Since of course I don't have the Greek alphabet on my keyboard, the Greek words are typed in English letters that best define the sound of the Greek word. The preferred or most common translation of each Greek word is listed first followed by alternate but less common meanings:
1. ah-eye = always, ever, duration.
2. aheek-mal-o-tid-so = age, perpetuity, course, eternal, evermore, without end
3. Ahee-o-nee-us = perpetual, past and future, eternal, ever, everlasting.
I'm not a linguist nor do I play one on TV. But my cousin has a masters in linguistics and works for a Washington D.C. based company that translates obscure and/or "dead" languages from around the world into English for US government agencies including the CIA. If my amateurish effort at translating the Greek according to a commonly used Greek/English dictionary is insufficient to settle the issue, I might be able to get a much more comprehensive translation of those words from her by email, possibly including a history of their evolution into 1st century Greek from other more ancient languages.
Although I have no doubt whatsoever of the validity of my own belief on the matter of man's eternal soul, for my personal satisfaction I still intend to try to get a conclusive answer to the meaning and common usage of the Greek words at the time in which they were written from my cousin, who is the professional linguist I mentioned in #73.
Would you also ask your cousin about where Jesus was during those three days in light of the Scriptures I refered to in post #66? I can’t seem to get an answer from the posters here. He can even mail it if so desired. Thanks.
There are no scriptures given in #66.
Sorry bout that. In Acts 2:25 Peter quotes David (from Psalm 16:10) where he speaks about the Christ saying His soul would not be left in hell.
David himself is dead and buried, vs 29.
Christ soul not left in hell, vs.31.
David not in heaven, vs 34.
Where was Christ during the three days in the light of the above? Paradise, hell, heaven, tomb?
Acts 2:25, "David said about him:
" 'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
Nothing about God being in hell here.
Psalm 16:10, " because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."
Nothing about God being in Hell here either.
David himself is dead and buried, vs 29."
Nothing about David, or anyone else being in hell here. Acts 2:29, "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day."
"David not in heaven, vs 34."
Acts 2:34, "For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
Obviously David wasn't dead yet, because he wrote this and went on writing. Nevertheless, it has nothing to do with anyone being, or having been in hell. It indicates that Jesus is God, since only God can be His own right hand man, and only God is the Person of the Holy Spirit, and David was given that while alive. It is the same plurality that's found in Gen 1:29, when God identifies the Person whose image and likeness man is in, and in Gen 3:22 where God IDs man as knowing good and evil. In those passages God refers to Himself as us.
"Where was Christ during the three days in the light of the above? Paradise, hell, heaven, tomb?
None of the above addresses that. Paradise is Heaven. A tomb is simply a place to place a dead body, one that is incapable of functioning as the living machinery that supports the spirit, as in post 60. The spirit does not reside in a grave. The following tells exactly where God's Spirit went. Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." God's Spirit would be in no other place, but in His own place and in His own Temple. That Temple was destroyed on the cross, but not His Spirit. The Temple was raised by Him in 3 days, as per John 2:19, "Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
I believe that's about what I said. Abraham, in reality, forsaw Jesus' day. The Greek phrase used in that verse contained both the term for "see" and for "saw." The context is not hard to see - Abraham "forsaw."
I referred to a book in the original thread post with the title of "Church Doctrines: Right or Wrong? (You Decide)" and find that the author did quite an extensive investigation into the Greek terms "aion, aionias," the Hebrew term "olam," and other related terms." In one of his appendix's he has a whole list of words concerning "time" that one should consider, and how the term "eternal and eternity" entered into the Bible. I think one can get that book at the following places: The Publisher, iuniverse.com; amazon.com; and b&n.com (Barn's and Noble).
BTW, you can find the Greek font "spionic" on the Web and install it into your word processing programs. It's easy to use. I've tried to use it here via "copy and paste" but it doesn't work.
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