Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Boogieman
First of all, the elders in the New Testament churches seem to have been selected from those who were already respected members of the congregation, not men sent from some central ecclesiastical authority as we see in the Catholic church.

This is still true today. Rome does not send anyone; they simply affirm the individual chosen.

Furthermore, when I read I Timothy 3, which is probably the best description of the qualifications for holding offices in the Church, it clearly states that both the bishop and deacon should be men married to one wife, and it also talks about how they should keep their family affairs in order, even mentioning their children.

This verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

Celibate priesthoods were typically a feature of pagan religions, while in the Old Testament, the Jewish custom was for priests and rabbis to be married men.

Jesus was a rabbi. He was not married. Latin Rite priests and many in the Eastern Catholic Churches, model their lives on Jesus. In 1 Cor. 7:27, Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church. Agin in 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

I might also point out that the text you posted again claims that the power of forgiving sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, but the verse itself in John 20, says that the disciples were assembled when this commission was given, it does not say the apostles were the only ones present.

As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.

Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22–23).

Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, "Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven." In using the second person plural you, Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men. Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?

13 posted on 07/27/2009 10:23:49 AM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies ]


To: NYer

“Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?”

Maybe that is why your interpretation is wrong.God doesn’t make mistakes. It says, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Sounds like the Holy Spirit is to guide them in their actions, not the confessions of individual believers.

Are there any examples in scripture to tell us how these verses were applied?

Hmmm...

“1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.” - 1 Corinthians 5

Followed by:

” 5Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.” - 2 Corinthians 2

So we see, not individual confessions, but church discipline. This shouldn’t surprise us, for in Matthew 18 we read:

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

It applies, not to sins of the individual before God, but church discipline. We, as deacons, did this in a Baptist Church when a fellow deacon ran off with a young woman in the choir, leaving his wife and kids.

Also see 1 Timothy 1: “By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

And note, these actions are taken against an UNREPENTANT sinner. It has nothing to do with confession to a priest. The only question is if it applies to Apostles only, but it is given to disciples who are going out to proclaim the gospel, so I believe it continues to this day.

An alternate view is put forth by the always readable Barnes:

Verse 23. Whose soever sins, &c. See...”Matthew 16:19”... “Matthew 18:18”. It is worthy of remark here that Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any peculiar authority. If Peter, as the Papists pretend, had been appointed to any peculiar authority, it is wonderful that the Saviour did not here hint at any such pre-eminence. This passage conclusively proves that they were invested with equal power in organizing and governing the church. The authority which he had given Peter to preach the gospel first to the Jews and the Gentiles, does not militate against this. This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins—that belongs only to God (Isaiah 43:23), but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Ghost to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon.”


18 posted on 07/27/2009 11:54:06 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies ]

To: NYer
NYer, from Boogieman's post and your rebuttal with my highlights;

I might also point out that the text you posted again claims that the power of forgiving sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, but the verse itself in John 20, says that the disciples were assembled when this commission was given, it does not say the apostles were the only ones present.

You answered

As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.

Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22–23).

Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, "Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven." In using the second person plural you, Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men. Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?

You ignore Jn 20: 19-20 which is mentioned in my post 8 and Boogieman's post and your reply. It states that the disciples were gathered. No mention that is was just the apostles.

Every place I highlighted your use of the word apostle in your post, it should read disciples. If you did, it would make your supposition that He brought His apostles a special gift of the Holy Spirit to be unsupported. The same with binding and loosing and forgiving sins.

The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us.  BVB

22 posted on 07/27/2009 2:48:14 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson