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Locked on 08/14/2009 10:19:45 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 08/11/2009 6:54:49 AM PDT by Wife of D
Good morning!
My Son-In-Law called me last night and told me a neat story about (him) losing his work ID ( a fireable offense), praying for the first time in 2 years because of that, seeing a brief glimpse of something about the Moravian church, then finding his badge. Of course there's more to it but I'm sparing you. :)
He also reported feeling completely re-energized and touched by the Hand of God -this would be a GREAT time for an 'AMEN!"- and "on fire and alive" despite having a rough weekend almost no sleep.
Anyway, he asked about the Moravian church. I have no prior knowledge of it but discovered it descended from Eastern Orthodox tradition?
If anyone has any information they would like to share I would appreciate the help. Post or email me. I'm looking for personal experience, good or bad, and real facts about what the church believes and teaches.
Thank you Freeper Friends, for any help you can give.
And thank you, Lord, especially, for opening the heart of Michael, who now seems to be on the path to seeking You. !!!Amen!!!!
You wrote:
“What people today call the Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church is officially called The One Catholic Apostolic Church and that Greeks up until recently self-identified as Romans.”
Uh, no. First, there is no such thing as the “Orthodox Church” but many churches. We commonly use the expression “Orthodox Church” as a collective term for convenience. Also, the Greek Church you’re talking about did not officially call itself “The One Catholic Apostolic Church” in the 9th century or today. That is a description taken from the Nicene Creed. Perhaps you picked that up from the wikipedia page on the Ecumanical Patriarch. If you hit the link, you’d go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One,_Holy,_Catholic,_and_Apostolic_Church
“In some nations (Arabs, Turks, Persians) variations of the name Roman is what they called the Greeks or “Greek Orthodox Christians”.”
No. The Turks call the church based in Istanbul (what we today call the Ecumenical Patriachate) the Patriachate of the Romans because of its Byzantine past.
“Greek Rite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic (as opposed to Latin Catholic) all are interchangeable, etc.”
No. Completely wrong. Greek Orthodox, for instance, belong to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Greece or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarch_of_Constantinople .
Greek Catholics, on the other hand, belong to churches like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Catholic
They are, in other words, completely different institutions, with different bishops, and different loyalties. The Greek Orthodox are loyal to Orthodox bishops while the Greek Catholics are loyal to Catholic bishops.
If this is a sign of your proficiency, then you might want to start over.
“See also Mosocow’s claim to be the “Third Rome”.”
I know all about it. And clearly you can’t tell the difference between a descriptive term from the Creed and the actual official name of the churches of the East. How sad for you.
“What was your thesis on, ‘doc’?”
Where is your proof for these claims:
1) “This is laid the groundwork for the resentment that long simmered against the Latin church.”
and
2) “Moravians fought to return to the ‘eastern Greek rite’.”
My apologies if I got personal. The only personal attack I think I made is that when vladimir998 claimed to be a PhD I demanded authenticity of said claim. I think I wrote that until I see proof I consider all such PhD claims as false until proven otherwise - I think I used the term fraudulent.
It is also "making it personal" to make the thread "about" individual Freepers.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You wrote:
“Read for free online via Google (Because I know you did not do so before): A Greek Roman Empire: Power and Belief Under Theodosius II (408-450) By Fergus Millar”
This in no way supports what you said Nikas. I can’t believe you would claim it does.
You said: “Anyone reading this will now see my evidence and judge accordingly that those making the link to the Moravian people’s Christian origins are justified to include their Greek Christian roots (by Greek I mean eastern Roman Greek rite - which is labeled “orthodox” these days by laymen.”
You were claiming there was an “eastern Roman Greek rite”. There wasn’t. A book by Millar which is about the BYZANTINE Empire, (i.e. what was left of the Roman empire in the East, then dominated by Greek culture) has nothing to do with the names of the rites of the Church then or now.
I can’t believe the lengths you go to and yet you end up empty handed.
Nikas,
You, more than once, referred to me as a liar. I have never lied to you. You can demand proof from my personal life all you want. You won’t get it. I repeatedly told you that you were getting personal (a rules violation) and you ignored my warnings.
Wikipedia??? Really ‘doc’? The Uniates in communion with Rome are also called Byzantine Catholics or Greek Catholics or Eastern Rite Catholics.
But Greek Catholic is also synonymous with Greek Orthodox - the Greek Orthodox church does even officially call itself Orthodox in its title.
Orthodox is what lay people use. Sort of like calling the Eastern Roman empire the ‘Byzantine Empire”.
Since you like the kindergarten level of scholarship - look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks
“Rhomaioi (”Romans”) is the political name by which the Greeks, or the hellenized populations of the Eastern Roman Empire, were known during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages”
Again, discuss the issues not the other Freeper. If you cannot or will not comply, leave the thread.
You wrote:
“Wikipedia??? Really ‘doc’? The Uniates in communion with Rome are also called Byzantine Catholics or Greek Catholics or Eastern Rite Catholics.”
Now you know it. A few minutes ago you apparently didn’t. You’re learning. Good.
“But Greek Catholic is also synonymous with Greek Orthodox - the Greek Orthodox church does even officially call itself Orthodox in its title.”
Most Orthodox churches call themselves such. See the Greek Orthodox Church in America for instance. Here, let me help you: http://www.goarch.org/
“Orthodox is what lay people use. Sort of like calling the Eastern Roman empire the ‘Byzantine Empire”.”
No. Even those who would not be called “lay people” use the term Orthodox. All the time in fact. And historians use the term Byzantine Empire often as well.
“Since you like the kindergarten level of scholarship - look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks";
Nikas, again, you’re getting personal. Also, I cited the wikipedia page because it was a simple way to show that you were wrong. And you were. The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not interchangeable as you falsely claimed. Yes, even a kindergartner might know you were wrong.
““Rhomaioi (”Romans”) is the political name by which the Greeks, or the hellenized populations of the Eastern Roman Empire, were known during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages””
To themselves and some others - but their Church is not known by that by really anyone other than the Turks nor was it called that in the Middle Ages by Slavs.
You lose again.
You wrote:
“Until you prove your claim of being a PhD I consider you a liar. Nothing personal. I also said I would apologize very publicly if you confirmed your PhD.”
Nikas, stop making this personal. I will never share personal info with you. Again, stop making this personal by calling me a liar. I have a PhD. You will NEVER see any info on it from me. None.
You wrote:
“Yes, it is.”
Nope. If there was, then you would easily be able to fine proof of it. So far you have failed UTTERLY.
“See the Greek church of the Byzantine empire aka orthodox aka Greek catholics aka Romans (what the Moravians called the Greeks as did everyone else at that time). It is synonymous.”
No. The Roman Empire (whether Roman or Byzantine) was NEVER synonymous with a rite of the Church. Period. Case closed.
If you can’t post any evidence of yet another claim, what will you do?
Can/will you at least advise what field/discipline you have a PhD in?
I don't want personal information. I only asked what the subject of your thesis was and where the PhD was granted. I will reduce my request to the PhD subject only.
If you can not back up your claim why introduce it as if to intimidate? It had the the reverse affect on me. It made me laugh.
You wrote:
“Can/will you at least advise what field/discipline you have a PhD in?”
When will you post evidence for these claims you made:
1) “This is laid the groundwork for the resentment that long simmered against the Latin church.”
and
2) “Moravians fought to return to the ‘eastern Greek rite’.”
You wrote:
“You know full well I was using the term ‘eastern Roman Greek rite’ to describe the eastern Roman Empire using the Greek liturgical rites.”
God only know what you intended. The end result is the same: There was no Roman Greek rite or eastern Roman Greek rite. We could say there was a Greek rite, but that’s it.
“I don’t want personal information. I only asked what the subject of your thesis was and where the PhD was granted.”
That would be personal information: 1) It would reveal where I worked (none of your business), 2) you earlier asked to know the title, and even said I could send you a copy. Don’t pretend now that you only asked for the place and subject.
“I will reduce my request to the PhD subject only.”
No. Even revealing the specific subject could very well reveal my name. As long as search engines like google exists, it’s easy. I tested that myself this morning.
“If you can not back up your claim why introduce it as if to intimidate?”
How does my admission of possession of a degree intimidate anyone online? Are you telling me your scared? UNBELIEVABLE.
“It had the the reverse affect on me. It made me laugh.”
Fine. We’re all laughing at you so what does it matter?
Posts 51 and 72, respectively, aren't mine. You need to redirect that question to Nikas777.
Do I read right, from some earlier posts of yours, that your PhD is in history?
Both of you, stop making this thread about yourselves. Discuss the issues but do not make it personal.
So you did not like how I phrased it? Tough. Eastern Romans of the Greek rite would have been better for you?
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