Posted on 08/21/2009 4:56:41 PM PDT by lightman
Discussion resumed on “Resolution 1,” with Susan Dill, DE-MD. In my visiting with people, I’ve heard stories of bishops who are already keeping people of one opinion or another out of their synod. How is that respect of conscience going to work? (Interesting question, though not germaine to the present resolution.) Timothy Wengert answered, suggesting that bishops and synods must respect the consciences with which they disagree. Stan Olsen added that we have one roster, and anyone on the roster is eligible for call in any synod.
Pr. Richard Mahan, WV/WMd. Spoke against. We’ve lost nearly half a million members over five years. If we pass this resolution, that rate of loss will increase. The majority of my congregation would vote to leave the ELCA if this passes. How can the church I have served for over 40 years contemplate this step that is contrary to the Word of God?
Tim Mumm, SC Wisc. Jesus had no scriptural foundation for healing on the Sabbath; he valued his ability to see the need and understand the person. We are living with a situation that the writers of Scripture could not have understood. Reiterated revisionist interpretation of Romans 1. For me, marrying a woman would be sinful, for many reasons, and God has not gifted me with celibacy. I can’t believe God has put me and others in a no win situation.
Pr. Ryan Mills, N. Tex/N. La. Central message of Scripture is that God so loved the world he gave his only son. This assembly does not have a right to vote on the Scripture, it is a gift of God. The Greeks knew plenty about homosexual relationships, and Paul said “no.”
Bp. David Brauer-Rieke, Oregon. Recalled attending a wedding as a child, sensing an air of disapproval. I asked my father, “why are we here” and he responded “because we are their community, and we are here to support them.” This resolution requires no one to do anything, but it allows those who want to support gay and lesbian people in their relationships to do so.
David Keck, S. OH. Since the inception of this church, we have spoken of the three expressions of the church. This idea of “local option” in one sense gives a local congregation the option to do what they wish and stay in the ELCA, but in the larger sense it changes the teaching of the church. This proposal contradicts our social statement, which “does not approve” of sexual relationships outside of marriage.
Wayne Olsen, NJ. Told anecdote about a 50th wedding anniversary, presided over by two pastors, one in a 25 year same sex relationship, the other single and committed to celibacy.
Pr. Paul Koch, NW MN. All my life I have known and loved gay and lesbian people. I speak against this resolution, believing we must welcome gays and lesbians as Christ welcomes them. I am not Philip, they are not Ethiopian eunuchs. We are all sinners. We repent of what God’s Word calls sin. Everytime the Bible speaks of homosexual intercourse, it speaks against it. Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in adultery, but he tells her to sin no more. Welcoming sinners and calling sinners to repentence—we do them both.
Renato Rodriquez, NE PA. A question: Where within the governing documents of the ELCA is the term “conscience bound” defined clearly? No one seemed eager to answer the question. Finally Tim Wengert noted that in the social statement on sexuality there is definitive language about bound conscience. It would have been possible to use Paul’s concept of “the weak” but we believed in the committee that would be to prejudge one side or the other. You will find discussion of this in the article on fasting in the Augsburg Confession. Luther also addresses it at various places.
Allison Guttu, Metro NY, supported the resolution. Some have expressed concern about congregations leaving, but I have seen congregations flourish as a result of engaging these issues. I’ve seen mine grow. This resolution is about allowing people to follow their conscience. It does not impose anything on anyone.
Pr. Paul Messner, upstate NY. We call ourselves “voting members,” not delegates. We represent only ourselves. Does anyone sincerely believe that if the members of the ELCA were asked to vote on these resolutions, they would approve them?
Pr Serena Sellers, SE PENN. I believe Bible is the divinely inspired word of God, and I have deep concern about morality. We must give all members the opportunity to be held accountable.
Pr. Steve Nelson, MT. I’ve listened closely, but have not been convinced.
Previous question was moved. Pr. Zachary Thompson expressed concern that several people seem to speak frequently, while others who perhaps don’t understand the procedures as well don’t manage to get heard. PB took that as a matter of counsel to the members. Previous question was sustained, 775-239. There was prayer that included a petition that we recognize that the church is for everyone. On Resolution 1, allowing congregations that choose to do so to “recognize, support and hold publicly accountable life-long, monogamous, same-gender relationships,” the assembly approved 619-402.
Then they took up Resolution 2, “that the ELCA commit itself to finding a way for people in such publicly accountable, lifelong monogamous same-gender relationships to serve as rostered leaders in this church. John England, Rocky Mtn. spoke in favor. Spoke about a congregation in SC racially integrated in 1978, a beacon of light in spite of prejudice and discrimination. Current policies support “separate but not equal”; they need to be revised.
Pr. Cathy Ammlung, DE-MD. Until this week, the church has given me solid footing in my teaching and preaching that sexual intimacy was to be expressed in marriage, but I could also stand for justice for those whose lives did not express that standard. That was a great gift to the church and to me. That footing has been greatly eroded this week, and it will erode further if this is approved. What had been the teaching of my church is now reduced to personal opinion. We are left as theological and ethic freelancers. I respectfully urge defeat of the recommendation.
Pr. Lee Miller, SE PENN, reading from Galatians “justified not through the law, justified by faith in Christ.” Spoke of friend who committed suicide because he could not reconcile his sexual orientation with what his church was saying he should not be. I stand on shoulders of gay and straight folks who have proclaimed the message of love.
Erik Samuelson, E. ID. I come to oppose this, not because I changed my mind but because when I was terrified to speak earlier, my brother John standing at the microphone next to me and prayed for me. When the social statement passed, I knew that John’s heart was breaking. I speak on behalf of my brother John. (This was a very eloquent speech; sorry I couldn’t get it more accurately.)
Pr. Paul Beck, SE Penn. In my town, Mennonites are predominant. When people disagree with the Mennonites, they form large independent churches, largely fundamentalist. As evangelical Christians, we have had our language ripped out from under us by people who are not evangelical. I’m wondering if we are losing a fight to the so-called Christian evangelicals among the Lutherans.
Pr. Terry Stagner-Collier, SE. I would like to lift up a call for compassion for those currently disenfranchised in this church: my sister, who called me in tears yesterday because she feels her church has been ripped away from her. For my father who will not commune at my side in an ELCA congregation again. I urge you not to do this to all those people in the pew and in my family.
Bp. Wayne Miller, Metro Chicago. In praying through these matters, our best path is the concept of covenant, promises made, kept and honored. It is a structure that embraces both law and gospel. If I were standing here as an otherwise qualified gay man, the only thing standing between me and a life long loving relationship would be my church. This is intolerable.
Stanley Sommer, Texas-LA. Here is my dilemma: do I support sin or discourage sin? We welcome all into God’s kingdom, but that does not mean we should encourage our neighbor in sin.
The previous question was called, but not sustained by the required majority (required 2/3, got 62%).
Pr. Jean Larson, Montana. The story of the inclusion of Gentiles shows us that the Spirit can do surprising, astonishing things. We are at such a moment now.
Matthew Riak, NW lower MI. I stand representing African Christians. If you vote for this resolution, your votes mean that you do not need the African Christians in this church. We African nationals are more than 114 congregations in the ECA. We need you to vote no.
Bp. Margaret Payne, NEngland. Our congregations are divided. In the spirit of bearing one another’s burdens, I want to state that there is no litmus test in my synod, nor I believe in others. The question we ask pastors coming into the synod is “Are you able to listen to carefully and support the bound conscience of your colleagues and parishioners?” Five of the six states in our synod recognize some form of same-sex union. Does that mean that in New England anything goes? Just the opposite. The bound conscience is not an excuse for personal desire, but a deeply held theological position.
The debate was recessed for worship.
It isn’t a good tactic to allow those bent on destroying you to infiltrate your ranks. These people can’t be very bright.
They just passed all 4 Ministry Recommendations to allow gays to serve as rostered leaders in the ELCA.
I guess some pastors will have some ‘splainin’ to do on Sunday.
Lord have mercy on our souls.
“Woe to those who call good evil and evil good” Isaiah 5:20a
One more down.
I saw this coming 5 years ago, and it was one of my reasons for converting to Catholicism.
One by one they all will capitulate as they did on contraception, as they did on divorce.
* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.
They will lead those who would follow to the gates of hell! You cannot follow, asking them to repent.
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