Lutheran (EL
* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.
Posted on 08/21/2009 5:11:21 PM PDT by lightman
Pr. Cory Johnson, N Great Lakes moved amendment B-MP-7. This would add the following wording in the second resolved:
RESOLVED, that this church, because of its commitment to respect the bound consciences of all, declare its intent to incorporate structured flexibility in decision-making into its policies and procedures so that synods, bishops, congregations, candidacy committees, and others involved in the candidacy process and in the process of extending calls will be free to act according to their convictions regarding the approving or disapproving in candidacy and the extending or not extending of a call to rostered service of a person who is otherwise qualified and who is living or contemplates living in a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship;
This is actually the originally language of the task force, changed by the Church Council (Pr. Johnson was one of the three dissenters on the task force).
There was then a motion to close debate on all matters before the house—which would be the Johnson amendment and Recommendation 4. The motion failed 621-323 (just under the 2/3 requirement).
Eric Peterson, SC WI. In this we are doing what we just adopted in Bp. Kusserow’s amendment. This is not necessary. I think we want to move forward to the main motion.
Pr. Mike Johnson, W. ND. The social statement teaches we are to respect the bound conscience of those with whom we disagree. This amendment will do exactly that by ensuring that the minority in each synod is protected.
Pastor Loy from ad hoc committee noted that those writing the policies will be a tightrope between procedures for the whole church on the one hand, and respecting the bound conscience on the other. The committee felt this amendment was too restrictive in terms of options.
The question on this amendment was moved, and sustained, 851-101. The amendment was rejected, 402-558.
There was a parliamentary wrangle when a bishop called the order of the day. The PB seemed to interpret this as a move to cut off debate and vote immediately, which seems to me wrong, but the motion was strongly defeated.
Bp. Jon Anderson, SW MN. Today’s actions will cause suffering for many. I have many questions about how this will unfold. We have said that we will find a way to do this; now we’re trying to vote on what that way will look like, and I don’t see that we have clarity about this, either on the candidacy or call process side of this.
Resource person Stan Olson. Difficult to answer. The task force had limited time to work on this, and therefore decided they would not try to write specifics. I would assume that as we worked on this, and then brought it to the bishops and the Council, we would be very careful in defining all these issues. There is much work to be done here.
Pr. Laurie Larson Caesar, Oregon. I serve a Lutheran/Roman Catholic parish; my colleague is a priest. Many of our Catholic colleagues are amazed by what we are doing—amazed by transparency, amazed by participation of women, of laity. In the Lutheran church, we trust our leaders, our task forces, our procedures.
Eric Peterson moved the previous question, and it was sustained, 829-126.
At this point there was a very bizarre comment, didn’t get the guy’s name, that our liturgical experts be asked to prepare some liturgical material to say goodbye to those who may feel they need to leave us.
The vote on Resolution 4 carried 667-307.
PB made some pastoral remarks, reflecting on the difference in pastoral response to persons who had suffered loss—he might read Romans 8; or those who had suddenly felt included after a long exclusion—he might read Ephesians 4; or if it was both groups, wondering what might happen next, I might read from Colossians 3: “Clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, patience . . .bear with one another, forgive one another.” That passage gives invitation and expectation that those deeply disappointed today will have freedom to continue to admonish and teach; and those who have experienced reconciliation today, you are called to humility. But we’re all called to let the peace of Christ dwell in our hearts, remembering again and again that we are all called into one body.
Pr. David Glesne, Minneapolis, point of personal privilege. I would like to speak on behalf of about a third of this assembly. We have capitulated to the culture. Heavenly Father, forgive us. We who have not agreed declare our covenant with all those within and without the ELCA who share the same perspective: We will not, we cannot break our allegiance to Holy Scripture. Though the world ridicules our witness, we confess that only in bondage to God’s word can one be truly free. Lord Jesus, by your cross and resurrection give us love and courage.
Tom Pearson SW TX moved that the CWA ask the Church Council to undertake a study of the concept of bound conscience historically and theologically. PB ruled that we have no time now to consider this. The session closed with the singing of “The Day You Gave Us, Lord, Has Ended.”
Earlier in the day I received emails from two Voting Members who are utterly demoralized by all that has taken place. One had spoken several times on the assembly floor and was questioning if it was even worth the fight.
This, my friends, is the goal of the Enemy--to cause us to give in to despair, the evil twin of pride.
* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.
“Pr. Laurie Larson Caesar, Oregon. I serve a Lutheran/Roman Catholic parish; my colleague is a priest.”
How is this possible?
It is too late for the ELCA. Satan has been running the ELCA from its conception. It will only get worse. If you really cared about the people, you would encourage them to leave the ELCA.
Lutheran Church use to be a Christian Church didn’t it?
I haven’t kept track of all the changes.
Can someone post a list of which of the Protestant denominations are still more or less Christian. Methodists, Episcopalian, United Church of Christ, (now Lutheran) have been take over is it now just the Baptists and various Pentecostals that are left?
Huh? What the heck?
We, at least for now, are not near that cliff.
Reply # 5 on the ALPB forum discussing this post is worth of wider distribution:
The Call for Unity:
To folks like Brian [a revisionist troll]:
The liberal activists who have dragged the ELCA over the edge say they need us who are orthodox. WHY?
Why do they call us to be in unity with them? Why do they say they need us?
They may need our money. They may need our numbers or our congregations. They may even need us to give them some theological cover. But they do not want us.
The anxious desire for unity does not extend beyond the institutional survival of the ELCA.
We who are bound by the WORD of God are ridiculed as “literalists” and “fundamentalists”.
We are maligned as “self-righteous” and “homophobic” and hateful.
Our concern that the ELCA has abandoned the authority of scripture as the norm for the practice of the faith is trivialized as “banning homosexuals” by you and others.
When we warn of theological heresy, we are dismissed as outdated people who need to be surprised by the Spirit and given a spiritual wedgie.
As orthodox seminarians can detail the ridicule they experience in ELCA seminarians these days, we can expect the same ridicule and pressure to conform.
I do not believe for an instance that the resolution 4 will have any effect in stopping the steamroller us “fundamentalists” will be under.
Once these policies are firmly in place, those “bound by conscience” will find no sympathy for their position.
While they talk of unity and a broad diversity, tolerance for those bound by the Word of God will evaporate.
All we have to do is listen to how ELCA leadership maligns Baptists and other Evangelical Christians to know how much loving unity will be extended to those “bound by conscience.”
All proclamations of unity are a farce. We do not have unity now. To talk of a broad diversity is inane. Two opposing truths cannot occupy the same space.
For those revisionists who trivialize this simply as a struggle over the issue of GLBT’s and dismiss our warnings that the ELCA has abandoned of the authority of Scripture in favor of human wisdom, WHY would you say you desire unity with Christians who hold such “outdated” beliefs?
WHY would you want unity with those who you applaud and cheer you have won a victory over?
If we are such wretched “hate-filled” believers, I cannot see why you would say you need us except to re-educate us.
WHY DO YOU WANT US IN THE ELCA?
You do not respect us. You do not want us derailing your agendas. You belittle the people in the pews as backwwards hicks.
Do not tell me we do not respect you either. We have listened to the revisionists. We have been impacted by your pleas to your antedotal stories, but we have found your eisegesis wanting.
And I will say it, no, I do not believe there is unity with those who overthrow the scriptures. If we do not have unity in the Faith and in the Word, we do not have unity in the Spirit.
For Brian and others, if you have not recognized - this has been a long time in coming from our perspective. It is the last straw.
For those who see themselves as orthodox, just like many warned the Concordat with the Episcopal Church would lead us to this drastic vote, this decision to overturn scripture will lead to growing universalism (See Mt 28:19-20 note in the Book of Faith Bible), introduction of neo-pagan rituals (See UCC) and continued erosion of Trinitarian language.
The buzz words of Lutheranism will remain, but increasingly the traits of being an ELCA Lutheran will be defined by their politically correct core values rather than the Lutheran Confessions. The ELCA will remain.
Few pastors will be willing to risk salary, pension and mobility to leave the ELCA.
Few congregations comfortable in their own context and actively ignoring the ELCA will feel the drive to take on synods to depart the ELCA.
The ELCA will remain a large institution, but the pretense of unity is shattered.
For those who leave a reinvigorated faith will emerge in the midst of struggle. This is the promise of Jeremiah 24:1-10.
Amen!
Not all of them. Some did not become part of the ELCA, or it's predecessors. The Missouri Synod for example.
Somehow I don't think the pastor of my daughter's ELCA (and fomerly Swedish Lutheran) church in Austin Texas, is going to care much for this action. But he's old and probably on the way out anyway.
He claims never to have been thrown up by a baby during the baptism ceremony, inspite of always raising them up above his head.
The older, but smaller of my twin granddaughters *almost* got him though. :)
Bump for the Missouri Synod by a Catholic. They treated our kids very well at Vacation Bible School. Generous, too.
I noticed today that their reader board has a comment up about the ELCA situation — said “Do what’s moral, not what’s politically expedient” or something like that.
From what I can see, it’s the Anabaptists (Baptists, Mennonites) and some of the mainline folks. What’s word about the Calvinists and the Reformed?
We’ve lost the Episcopalians, Methodists, Congregationalists, United Church and about half the Presbyterians.
"...Voting Members who are utterly demoralized by all that has taken place...."
I beg all who are lurking to remember the pastor lightmans and their flocks in our prayers. Pray they remember that God is always with us even though he may seem distant.
- A couple of confirmation verses to remember:
"Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."
and also:
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world."
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