Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
The ultimate intention of Catholicism is the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. That has always been the ambition, at least covertly, but now it is being promoted overtly and openly.
The purpose of this article is only to make that intention clear. It is not a criticism of Catholics or Catholicism (unless you happen to think a Catholic dictatorship is not a good thing).
The most important point is to understand that when a Catholic talks about liberty or freedom, it is not individual liberty that is meant, not the freedom to live one's life as a responsible individual with the freedom to believe as one chooses, not the freedom to pursue happiness, not the freedom to produce and keep what one has produced as their property. What Catholicism means by freedom, is freedom to be a Catholic, in obedience to the dictates of Rome.
The Intentions Made Plain
The following is from the book Revolution and Counter-Revolution:
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"B. Catholic Culture and Civilization
"Therefore, the ideal of the Counter-Revolution is to restore and promote Catholic culture and civilization. This theme would not be sufficiently enunciated if it did not contain a definition of what we understand by Catholic culture and Catholic civilization. We realize that the terms civilization and culture are used in many different senses. Obviously, it is not our intention here to take a position on a question of terminology. We limit ourselves to using these words as relatively precise labels to indicate certain realities. We are more concerned with providing a sound idea of these realities than with debating terminology.
"A soul in the state of grace possesses all virtues to a greater or lesser degree. Illuminated by faith, it has the elements to form the only true vision of the universe.
"The fundamental element of Catholic culture is the vision of the universe elaborated according to the doctrine of the Church. This culture includes not only the learning, that is, the possession of the information needed for such an elaboration, but also the analysis and coordination of this information according to Catholic doctrine. This culture is not restricted to the theological, philosophical, or scientific field, but encompasses the breadth of human knowledge; it is reflected in the arts and implies the affirmation of values that permeate all aspects of life.
"Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church.
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Got that? "Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church." The other name for this is called "totalitarianism," the complete rule of every aspect of life.
This book and WEB sites like that where it is found are spreading like wildfire. These people do not believe the hope of America is the restoration of the liberties the founders sought to guarantee, these people believe the only hope for America is Fatima. Really!
In Their Own Words
The following is from the site, "RealCatholicTV." It is a plain call for a "benevolent dictatorship, a Catholic monarch;" their own words. They even suggest that when the "Lord's Payer," is recited, it is just such a Catholic dictatorship that is being prayed for.
[View video in original here or on Youtube. Will not show in FR.]
Two Comments
First, in this country, freedom of speech means that anyone may express any view no matter how much anyone else disagrees with that view, or is offended by it. I totally defend that meaning of freedom of speech.
This is what Catholics believe, and quite frankly, I do not see how any consistent Catholic could disagree with it, though I suspect some may. I have no objection to their promoting those views, because it is what they believe. Quite frankly I am delighted they are expressing them openly. For one thing, it makes it much easier to understand Catholic dialog, and what they mean by the words they use.
Secondly, I think if their views were actually implemented, it would mean the end true freedom, of course, but I do not believe there is any such danger.
That's as clear as I can make my answer.
You should try it.
Did God know everything that would ever occur in time at the moment of creation?
Does it matter to his salvation either way according to double predestination?
That's as clear as I can make my answer.
I think you are capable of a yes or no.
Did God know everything that would ever occur in time at the moment of creation?
I see you are still having trouble with the statement I keep making: "God is omniscient." Perhaps it is the word "omniscient." It means "all-seeing, all-knowing. Specifically to your question the answer is yes.
Does what matter? Your question is poorly stated.
Specifically to your question (Did God know everything that would ever occur in time at the moment of creation?) the answer is yes
Ahhh. Thank you. That wasn't so bad, was it?
Now if God knows today, knew on the day of your birth, has always known since time began, if you would or would not be joining Him in heaven, do you think there is any way you can change God's foreknowledge of that outcome?
Because if God "foreknows" something will occur, it seems to me that in order to be the sovereign Lord of all creation He says He is in Scripture, that whatever that "something" is will most certainly occur according to the omniscience of God.
Now Calvinists believe that God not only foresees the future, but that He ordains the future. But for now, we won't bother with that.
It's enough that you've admitted you believe that "God knows everything that would ever occur in time at the moment of creation."
So when you accuse Calvinists of saying a man's fate is already known to God and therefore set in stone, you are really challenging what you've already said you believe.
You would have to have read my mind to have known that.
How many times does it take for an answer? If he joins or leaves the Catholic church, does it matter in his salvation according to double predestination.
Or, try this: According to double predestination is there *anything* he can do to change whether he is saved or doomed from the moment of his birth until the day he dies?
Ahhh. Thank you. That wasn't so bad, was it?
I answered it three times. God is omniscient means "all seeing, all knowing." The set of "everything that would ever occur in time at the moment of creation" is included in "all." Even more is included in "omniscient" than your question. Your question was answered twice before - assuming you know what omniscient means.
f you would or would not be joining Him in heaven, do you think there is any way you can change God's foreknowledge of that outcome?
Foreknowledge is not causal.
it seems to me that in order to be the sovereign Lord of all creation He says He is in Scripture, that whatever that "something" is will most certainly occur according to the omniscience of God.
Irrelevant to double predestination. Knowing is not causing. That's why I said to begin with, it's irrelevant to your point.
Now Calvinists believe that God not only foresees the future, but that He ordains the future. But for now, we won't bother with that.
I don't blame you. That way you head down the road towards the cruel, unmerciful, unjust god of Calvin.
So when you accuse Calvinists of saying a man's fate is already known to God and therefore set in stone, you are really challenging what you've already said you believe.
Horsehockey. Again a non sequitur from omniscience to double predestination.
Man is separated from the beasts of the field only by his ability to know and choose right from wrong. Man is therefore capable of freely returning the gift of love to God.
In Calvin's universe man is only playing a role in some sort of kabuki theater, going through the motions, reciting his lines and then dying.
You're still looking at it from the wrong perspective. A child of God would most likely not join an apostate church. If he did, he would eventually leave it.
Most likely. With God, all things are possible.
I understand your repetitive questions. I can only tell you that you they are nonsensical. A child of God will want to seek out a place to worship God according to the Scriptures. A man who is not a child of God will either head in the wrong direction or not care about God at all.
Foreknowledge is not causal.
I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing that if God has foreknown your eternal destination, how do you presume you can change it? At the moment of creation, God knew where you'd end up. Any alterations or changes of direction are all factored into God's omniscience.
What God knows is what is.
So you see, if you were to rid yourself of your "free will" myopia you would realize you just agreed that some men go to heaven and some men go to hell and those outcomes are set in stone and have been from the moment God created time and life.
So I'll ask you the same question you just asked me. "Is there *anything* he can do to change whether he is saved or doomed from the moment of his birth until the day he dies?"
Is there, if God already knows where that man will end up?
Horsehockey.
Tell it to God. Then tell us how you can change an outcome that you've already admitted God has foreseen as fact.
And "doomed" is not the Scriptural designation since "doomed" implies that an alternative result was desired by the man. The correct way to speak of these two difference courses is one man is acquitted of his sins and one man remains condemned in his sins.
And that acquittal is not "of him that runs or of him that wills, but of God who shows mercy."
Wow. That fallacy just negated the Fall of Adam and half the Bible.
Freely? Who needs Christ if man is "capable of freely returning the gift of love to God?"
Meaning is lost as well. Repentance. Love. Faith. All real meaning of this life - gone.
Catholics would make terrible dictators... and they can’t sing a lick or keep the rhythm in a hymm to save their lives. Maybe that’s why God loves us so much! ; ~ ) We’re imperfect and yeah..... we know it.
No, they are not lost. They come from God. Not from men.
Forced love is an oxymoron.
God repents. Meaningless.
~~”Catholics would make terrible dictators”~~
Would that were true...
Leon Degrelle, Belgium
Ngo Dinh Diem, Vietnam
Engelbert Dollfuss, Austria
Francisco Franco, Spain
Emil Hacha, Bohemia-Moravia
Konrad Henlein, Sudetenland
Adolf Hitler, Germany
Father Andrei Hlinka, Slovakia
Miklos Horthy, Hungary
Father Anton Koroshec, Yugoslavia
Pierre Laval, Vichy-France
Ferdinand Marcos, Phillipines
Benito Mussolini, Italy
Ante Pavelic, Croatia
Henry Petain, Vichy-France
Antonio Salazar, Portugal
Father Josef Tiso, Slovakia (hung as a war criminal)
Father Augustin Voloshin, Ruthenia
Fidel Castro, Cuba
Did God “force” His love on Paul on the road to Damascus?
I thank God He “forced” His love on me. Human beings are a very stubborn bunch.
Possible that someone doomed from the womb will be saved even? And you still haven't answered the question or its followup.
I'm arguing that if God has foreknown your eternal destination, how do you presume you can change it?
Easy. My choices had consequences, changed things. God foreknew that. No contradiction.
you just agreed that some men go to heaven and some men go to hell and those outcomes are set in stone and have been from the moment God created time and life.
Omniscience, again, does not prove double predestination. You are having a problem discerning the difference between knowing and causing all man's free will choices.
And "doomed" is not the Scriptural designation since "doomed" implies that an alternative result was desired by the man. The correct way to speak of these two difference courses is one man is acquitted of his sins and one man remains condemned in his sins.
What does the fetus desire in the womb where he is doomed? What sin has the fetus committed to deserve to be born only for the fires of hell ?
Who projects this cruelty on their view of god?
In this passage we see clearly that Saul had rejected the Lord in lieu of obeying the voice of his people out of fear. God we know is omniscient and knows completely the past, present and surely the future. He forsaw that Saul was to disobey him eventually. Yet God chose to make him king, in His wise wisdom. Eventually the Lord himself said that he regretted his decision. He repented of his decision. Yet God was said (v29) not to repent like a man! When a person regrets his decision, does he not feel despair? Does he not feel frustration that things does not go his way? Yet we know fully and clearly that God is sovereign. Nothing will happen unless he wills it. If He does not put it place to happen, it will not happen. If He wills it, it cannot be stopped. Hence, Saul's disobedience, just like Juda's betrayal, was preordained and preplanned by God, from start to finish. Even David's adultery with Bathsheba was preordained (so that you can have solomon, for example). All this was done so that God's glory may show. Ultimately, what God brings to pass, good or bad, is done such that God is most glorified. So does it make sense that God regrets the very thing he ordains? Is God frustrated by some human action? No. God cannot be frustrated. God is perfectly happy at the end state even when he does express regret or grief. Because whatever event that causes God to grief or regret was decided by him as well! He put it into place! He allowed it to happen! So we ask: Is God a schizophenic? Is He of 2 minds? Not if you know that God has 2 Wills. Revealed and secret will. This means that whatever is spelled out is his revealed desires, i.e. what pleases him and what does not. This is important to spell out the Law, which is used to condemn. On the other side, is his secret will, which is what he will put into motion such that God is ultimately glorified. it involves the death of the wicked and the hardening of their hearts. So in the revealed will, we have God stating that He desires the salvation of all men. [John 3:16 etc], yet on the other hand, his secret will condemns many and saves few so that His grace may be shown. Going back to the analogy of Saul, God in his secret will condemned Saul to destruction, and allowed Saul to disobey God. Yet, we know full well and obviously that God desires that His commands are all followed, as spelt in his revealed will, as i quote God: 1 Samuel 15:22 Hence we finally make sense of the profound statement: '29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.' God does not repent like a man due to his perfect knowledge of the future, God also does not desire like one too: we desire the wrong things, we get frustrated. God desires in full knowledge of the future that some may not come to pass (cause he will simply not let it), and does not get frustrated obviously. An application for us would be that God's commands today are not only commands written in black and white, but God is also desirous and sincere about wanting us following it. One of the commands is the gospel message, which God is hence absolutely sincere and desiring of. The answer from verse 29 is very clear: God does not repent like a man. Other versions give 'regret' and 'change his mind' as synonyms. So what is the profoundness of this statement?
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
No.
I thank God He “forced” His love on me.
No one can force love. Love not freely given is not love. Perhaps you have confused it with the Stockholm Syndrome.
I'm thankful for Christ's love and forgiveness is there if I accept it. I'm grateful that God is love; not a hate that dooms innocents.
I read the Bible. All of it. I don’t see this god of Calvin in it.
Taking one verse and writing ten times the “interpretation” of it changes nothing.
You end up the same place, with the same hateful unjust god. You’ve only convinced yourself that scriptures can get you there. More proof of the deep holes you can dig with sola scriptura, particularly in the hands of a lawyer.
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