Saakashvili Thanks Vatican for 'Steadfast Support'

Civil Georgia ^ | December 26, 2010

[Tailgunner Joe]

Speaking in the Catholic church in Tbilisi on December 25, President Saakashvili thanked the Holy Sea for "steadfast support" to Georgia's territorial integrity.

"I am especially grateful - and I have told it to Pope Benedict XVI [at a meeting in May, 2010] – for Vatican’s steadfast support to Georgia’s freedom, independence, and territorial integrity," said Saakashvili, who congratulated the Catholic community on Christmas.

Saakashvili also said: "I want to assure you that each of you should count on the support, love and assistance of the Georgian state."

"Georgian Catholics are an integral part of Georgian history and an important part of our cultural, spiritual, educational, national and multi-ethnic Georgian heritage," he said.

There are an estimated 35,000 Catholics in Georgia, according to the U.S. Department of State's annual report on religious rights.

[Tailgunner Joe]

The Vatican supports Orthodox Georgia's territorial integrity, whereas the Russian Orthodox Church has violated the canonical jurisdiction of the Georgian Orthodox Church by sending its priests into Georgian lands as conquerors alongside Russian soldiers.

[TXConservative25]

The Catholic Church is taking the lead where the Marxist Usurper is siding with the Rooskies.

[Cronos]

Sakaashvili is just issuing platitudes -- the Vatican just asked for a peaceful solution. It did not make some kind of "S. Ossetia is Georgian" statement.

Sakaashvili is trying to divert attention from this. I, a Catholic, don't see the Russian Orthodox CHurch acting the way you are implying -- the South Ossetians are a different people than the Georgians and they are Russian Orthodox, not Georgian Orthodox.

Sakaashvili wants to make all Georgians one - Catholics or Georgian Orthodox, which is a good thing for Georgians and for him, however, please don't make this as some comment on "Vatican support for Georgia v/s the Russian Orthodox" because this is NOT the case.

The South Ossetian conflict has a number of reasons:
1. Ossetia was split into 2 - north and south, between the russian federation and Georgia.
2. The Ossetian peoples are the last remnants of the Alans and have a strong cultural identity and of course wish to be one entity.
3. They are the only Christian Irani people -- and they are Russian Orthodox, not Georgian Orthodox
4. The Georgians under Sakaashvili have pursued a policy of Georgianization -- emphasising the Georgian Nationality and Christianity that unites them (the Georgian flag was changed / reverted back to the GEorgian Cross) -- which I mostly support as this has succeeded in converting many Moslems to Christianity (they were converted under hte IRani/Turkic rule of Georgia).
5. However, this meant that minorities like the Ossetians who are NOT Georgian were affected (I don't agree with the other minorities as I, an armchair reader, feel that Abkhazians are a branch of the Georgians, speaking a dialect of Georgian, just like the Colchis etc.) -- the Ossetes are Irani, the only distinctly non-Georgian minority in Georgia and they are living in territory they have lived in for over 1500 years.
6. Russia, surprisingly (yes, surprisingly), gives more room for minorities to retain their culture rather than a mono-cultural state like Georgia

Finally -- to sum up my pov -- I support Ossetia's territorial integrity and support Georgia's territorial integrity. Russia should not move into Georgia proper. And the Russian Orthodox were only administring to the Russian Orthodox in S. Ossetia, not "sending its priests into Georgian lands as conquerors alongside Russian soldiers."

[MarMema]

He is a politician and he wants unity in his country. The Georgian Orthodox church is old calendar so they won't hold Nativity until Jan 7th.

[Tailgunner Joe]

1. Your article is seven years old. Saakashvili's meeting with the new pope this very year shows a closer relationship.

2. South Ossetia is part of the Georgian Orthodox canonical jurisdiction. South Ossetians are not Russian Orthodox, they are in schismatics which have broken from the Georgian Orthodox Church. Russia violates the Georgian Orthodox Church's canonical jurisdiction and supports schism by sending its uninvited priests into Georgian lands as conquerors.

3.You completely ignored Abkhazia. Abkhazia is part of the canonical jurisdiction of the Georgian Orthodox Church. In fact the Patriarch of the Georgian Orthodox Church was the Bishop of Abkhazia! Russia violates that jurisdiction by sending its priests into Abkhazia as conquerors supporting a schismatic ethnic separatist regime.

The Russians under the Chekist Putin have pursued a nazi policy of "Russia for the Russians." They have persecuted Russian citizens of Georgian ethnicity because Georgians are considered untermensch by NAZI Russia. At the same time the issued Russian citizenship to non-Russian ethnic separtists in Georgia. Putin "protected" the Ossetians like Hitler "protected" the Sudetenland. Russia is guilty of the extermination and ethnic cleansing of thousands of innocent Georgian Christians. Putin and Medvedev are genocidal monsters who dropped cluster bombs on innocent women and children.

[MarMema]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BzfrLV3aZA&feature=related

[Cronos]

I didn't ignore Abkhazhia -- I mentioned that I do not support Russian "intervention" in other parts of Georgia that has GEorgian sub-groups, like Abkhazia or Adjuria --> both of these are populated, in my opinion, by Georgian peoples. They may speak a different dialect, but there are one of the Georgian peoples.

The Ossetians are different -- you have to admit that, they are an Irani people, speaking an Irani language. Georgia wanted to make a "one Georgia" (which I support in all aspects except for the policy against Ossetes), which would have meant wiping out the Alans/Ossetians culture and history utterly.

You cannot compare Ossetia to the Sudentenland as Ossetes are not Ethnic Russians by any means

You are right about the S. Ossetians being under the jurisdiction of the Georgian Patriarchate

[Cronos]

Going back to the original premise of this article and your first post, while it does seem to an outsider like me that the Russian Patriarch is trying to bring the Ossetes under his jurisdiction, here are some articles that contradict your statement:

1. Russian Orthodox Church mourns the "tragedy of three Christian peoples" Kirill, who is the first Patriarch to be elected in post-Soviet Russia, objects to South Ossetia’s move to establish its own Orthodox church, independent from the Georgian patriarchate.
2. South Ossetia and the Orthodox world (pdf)

   A remarkable feature of the unrecognized states in the post-Soviet territory is that they are located between jurisdictions of local (pomestnye) Orthodox churches. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are located between the jurisdictions of the Russian and Georgian Orthodox Churches, while Transnistria is situated between the Russian and Romanian Orthodox Churches.
   
   It is true that the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) does not seem to intend to repeat what it had done in regard to Georgia and Bessarabia at the beginning of the nineteenth century. At that time, the ROC expanded its religious jurisdiction by incorporating Georgia and Bessarabia immediately after the changes to the secular borders, that is, the Russian Empire’s conquest of the Kartri-Kakheti Princedom and Bessarabia. In contrast, the present ROC, to the chagrin of Ossetian and Abkhazian Orthodox believers, repeatedly recognizes that Abkhazia and South Ossetia belong to the canonic territory of the Orthodox Church of Georgia (OCG).
   
   The ROC repeated this position even after the war in August 2008, as a result of which the Russian secular government recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

3. Georgian, Russian Orthodox CHurches ponder South Ossetia

So, there does not seem to be any doubt about the Russian Orthodox Church's stance. One can have doubts about the Kremlin's stance, yes, but the ROC's seems to be very clear -- they want the S Ossetians to remain under Georgian Jurisdiction

[Cronos]

Why do you say that the Russians follow "Russia for the Russians." I've seen all evidence to the contrary -- especially in places as diverse as Kalmykia, Tatarstan, Siberia and the Caucasus (look at Dagestan or North Ossetia for example).

This is quite the opposite of tactics used by the communists.

And I have seen no evidence for Russian governments considering Georgians as any kind of untermenschen -- the skinheads in Moscow may be idiots, but the govt is not made up of them.

"Putin and Medvedev are genocidal monsters who dropped cluster bombs on innocent women and children." --> ok, examples, please?

[Tailgunner Joe]

Georgian Lena Samishvili mourns on August 16, 2008, over the body of her husband Gorami killed by a cluster bomb in the village of Tortiza, in the flashpoint city of Gori.

A Georgian man holds the body of a relative after a Russian warplane dropped a bomb on an apartment block in Gori, 50 miles from Tbilisi, on Aug. 9. At least five people were killed.

Dutch Say Russian Cluster Bomb Killed Cameraman

I could go on and on, but you should get the idea. RUSSIA DROPPED CLUSTER BOMBS ON INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN GEORGIA! PUTIN AND MEDVEDEV ARE GENOCIDAL MONSTERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXTERMINATION AND ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THOUSANDS OF GEORGIAN CHRISTIANS!

[Tailgunner Joe]

Russia launched a pogrom specifically against ethnic Georgians in 2006. Many Russian citizens of Georgian ethnicity had their windows broken like during Krystalnacht. Russia is following the path of Weimar Germany into fascist despotism.

[Tailgunner Joe]

The Russian Orthodox Church says one thing, but does another. They say they respect the GOC’s jurisdiction, but they violate it. They have to pay lip service to the idea of canonical jurisdiction because they don't want the ROC’s jurisdiction over Ukraine to be ignored. They don't want Russian Orthodox in Ukraine to be treated the way Russians are treating the Georgian Orthodox in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

[Tailgunner Joe]

You are wrong to say that and independent Georgia would have to wipe out the Ossete culture. Georgians and Ossetians intermarry freely and their two culture are intertwined. Only Russia's savage imperialism has set the Ossetians against Georgia. Russia's supports ethnic separatists in Georgia to destroy Georgian independence and sovereignty, not because they have any real allegiance to the Ossetian cause.

[Cronos]

THanks — yes, they dropped cluster bombs, killing 224 Georgian civilians in the entire war. Where do you get your “EXTERMINATION AND ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THOUSANDS OF GEORGIAN CHRISTIANS”?

[Cronos]

good point about the attacks on Georgians in Moscow in 2006. No casualties though.

[Cronos]

No, I do not deny that Georgians and Ossetians intermarry freely, but what has happened recently is due to Sakaashvili’s Georgianization program (which I support in the main except for the actions agains the Ossetes). This meant that Ossetes would have to lose their language and culture to become Georgian. This is unacceptable and is what caused the issue in the first place. Russia took the opportunity provided...I agree that the Russians don’t really give a damn, they were looking for an excuse.

[FormerLib]

But he’ll also tell you that the NATO bombings of Serb civilians was a good thing.

[Cronos]

So then is it a knee-jerk anti-Slav thing?

[FormerLib]

In the case of this particular poster, it always is.

Just file it in the “Ignore” bin.

[Tailgunner Joe]

"Formerlib" has slandered me and has not acted in a Christian way.

I have never approved the bombing of Serbs by NATO.

It is very sad to me that Serbs here at FR refuse to recognize that what Russia and the Kremlin's pet Chechens have done to Georgia is just as wrong as what Clinton did to Serbia.