An Open Letter to Harold Camping (From James White, the man who debated him)

Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | 05/24/2011 | Dr. James White

[Religion Moderator]

The above remark is related to a previous conversation with kosta50 - i.e. concerning when he would be treated by other posters and by me like an atheist rather than an agnostic.

His justification for closing his mind is irrelevant - this is a Religion Forum. Preaching happens.

When he is unconvinced or doubtful, he would be treated like an agnostic.

[kosta50]

this is a Religion Forum. Preaching happens

Preaching is fine. I was merely stating that his hopes of preaching to me to convince me are not convincing. They are not convincing me either way. If I were convinced that there is no God I wouldn't be here. But his particular attempt is not working to convince me.

I don't know what it would take to push me in either direction. Do you? What does it take to convince someone to be an Orthodox Christian as getoffmylawn is (as I was), as opposed to be a Reformed Calvinist, or a Mormon, a Jew, a Hindu, an atheist? I don't know.

I treat everyone's preaching with respect, but I respectfully refuse to accept everything that is dished out. After all, it's one MAN's view of what or who God is. Maybe there is an individual out there who will push the right button, I don't know. You want to give it a try, RM?

[getoffmylawn]

I am aware of the previous conversation. I've been following closely. Kosta has made it very clear that he is not an atheist.

Atheists believe and proclaim there is no God. Kosta has NEVER once said, "There is no God." He has gone so far as to say (paraphrasing here), "If everyone lived their lives according to Orthodox Christianity it would create heaven on earth." That's far from atheist talk.

Accusing someone of believing something they have never said they believe sounds dangerously close to mind reading to me.

[Vanders9]

The evidence so far shows that we are driven and controlled by the physical makeup of the world.

Which evidence would that be? The physical evidence of course. So you accept that evidence, but you wont accept evidence that you cannot see, feel or touch. Is the evidence of personal witness, the evidence of historians, the work of theologians of less validity?

Our own makeup determines what we see, feel, etc. We don't see, smell or smell what dogs can. And dogs cana't talak because they have no vocal chords. Our own size and weight and makeup determines which aspects of the physical world matter and which don't. To an insect gravity has a different effect than to us. But to an insect surface tension is a heck of a lot more pertinent then to us.

Thanks for the science lecture.

Now, you don't have to believe me.

On the contrary, I believe you absolutely. I've never denied the physical evidence we see around us. I dont really know why you try and convince me when I accept it. I guess it makes your case stronger. The difference between us is that you consider only that evidence when you make your judgements.

[Religion Moderator]

My remark was for your edification.

As long as you are saying you are doubtful or unconvinced you can expect to be treated like an agnostic.

It's when you say that your mind is made up that the other posters and I will treat you like an atheist.

[Vanders9]

If your last statement is true, then I will say kosta50 is the biggest mind reader on these boards. He has constantly, and consistently misinterpreted my arguments and, by thus associating them with ridiculous statements, successfully wriggled out of the points being made. The latest is this attempt to make out that im listening to voices in my head, and that I am indulging in sophism. The point I was trying to make, and the only point I have really ever been trying to make, is that the way we view and understand the world around us is through a combination of many things, of which reason and logic is only one part. People like kosta may CLAIM that they are only following hard physical evidence, but in reality they are just as subject to emotions and passions as anyone else. They are a part of being Human. He accuses me of circular reasoning. I put my hand up straight away. Yes my argument is circular. But, his argument is just as circular. He just doesn't realise it. Even circular arguments have to have a root, a basis. When all is said and done, the basis of kosta's argument is his own understanding.

But moderators are being called in now, and that to me means that more heat is being generated than light. So therefore I am going to bow out of this. I was getting more than a little tired of both me and the faith I hold to so dearly being insulted and deliberately slighted anyway. Respect for someone's position involves more than merely stating such every now and again. "I respect your faith but you are creating it all out of your head, implication you are mad" is not enough. Actions speak louder than words.

I am not a preacher. I admit it. I am sorry I have not been able to make a better and more convincing job of stating my position and upholding my faith. The fault is no doubt mine.

I apologise to anyone here I may have inadvertently upset by my clumsiness.

[kosta50]

It's when you say that your mind is made up that the other posters and I will treat you like an atheist

RM, I remain unconvinced either way; that makes me doubtful, not so much in God (I really try to leave God alone), but of MEN. Obviously, nothing that I would know for sure is God has revealed himself to me, so I depend on those who claim he has. But, the truth is, I simply don't know whom to believe. Preaching is fine, and I listen to believers of every flavor including atheists, but I always remember that they are fallible MEN, not God.

And preaching is fine and it happens. But the NT reminds us that not all have been appointed to be teachers, so maybe some people, no matter how much they believe, should try to be fruitful by applying their faith to something for which they have been more gifted then preaching.

getoffmylawn—thanks. Your memory is fascinating. I have never said that God doesn't exist. If I did I would be lying. But sometimes I do wonder if some people's God exists, and how do they know that.

[kosta50]

V, my aim was not to insult your faith. If I did I sincerely apologize. I was critical of your reasoning and uncovninced by your arguments. I am sorry it turned out that way.

I don't think anyone called the mod. He or she reads what people post, and simply made a comment. It's a thankless job.

[Religion Moderator]

You are correct. No one called me. I am continually reading Religion Forum posts looking for things that might be a problem.

[Vanders9]

The NT also states we should all be prepared to give a defence of our faith and of our certainty in God’s love, and that I have obviously signally failed to do.

[Vanders9]

V, my aim was not to insult your faith. If I did I sincerely apologize. I was critical of your reasoning and uncovninced by your arguments. I am sorry it turned out that way.

I'm sorry kosta, but I'm afraid that after that latest batch of answers I simply don't believe you.

It's ok for you to be critical and unconvinced by my arguments - I obviously need to brush up on my apologetics - but when answers are sidelined, misinterpreted and misrepresented on that scale, with a load of snide comments added, it's frankly a waste of my time and dishonoring to the Lord I serve to continue. Even given that I am not the best at explaining myself on paper, I just cannot accept that someone as obviously intelligent as yourself is not doing that deliberately.

I genuinely hope you find the answers and the peace in your life that you purport to be seeking. Sayonara.

[Vanders9]

Fair enough.