The Understanding of the Church Fathers Regarding the Olivet Discourse and the Fall of Jerusalem

Paper presented at the 2009 Pre-Trib Study Group ^ | 2009 | Dr. H. Wayne House

[dartuser]

Last year I presented a paper to this body regarding the Jewish historian Josephus’ understanding of the Olivet Discourse and the Fall of Jerusalem and particularly how Preterists had written about Josephus’ recording of the event. ... As I demonstrated last year, little if any of Josephus’ description satisfies the words of our Lord in His discourse.

... is there support for this type of understanding of the Fall of Jerusalem and the predictions of Christ within the writings of the Church that follows A.D. 70? Did the Church Fathers of the ensuing centuries look back on A.D. 70 as the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse in part, or whole? When reading the works of the theologians of the first several centuries—the patristic period ranging from the first through the eighth centuries—orthodox and heterodox,1 none of them seemed to refer to the fall of Jerusalem as a comprehensive fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse nor did they believe that most or all of the second coming was past.

[dartuser]

Given the postings of Philip as of late ... I thought it prudent to begin to post some scholarly papers that directly confront the preterist position.

At the heart of the preterist position is the belief that most or all of the events fortold by the Lord Jesus in Matt 24 were fulfilled in 70 AD. If that were true, the early church would have recognized this fulfillment and wrote about it, just as I have argued that Josephus' account is sorely lacking in support for the second coming being fulfilled in 70 AD. (see article by House posted at pre-trib.org for a discussion of Josephus).

In this article House reviews the various church fathers of the first few centuries and demonstrates that they did not understand the Olivet Discourse to be fulfilled in 70 AD, nor is there found a plurality of fathers who did not understand the events to be still yet future.

No doubt those who disagree will simply dismiss the author, but the data and arguments of this important work stand on their own ...

I offer this to the forum for your theological and exegetical enjoyment.

[Linda Frances]

I know that no one, including satan knows when Jesus will return, so satan must have a man ready in every generation to possess. The world looks like it's building a platform for the antichrist. I don't believe obama could be the antichrist like some here believe. He's not smart enough, liked enough or born in the right place. Kenya does not fulfill the prophecy. I have thought for a long time that the media/hollywood could be the false prophet.

The false prophet His arguments will be subtle, convincing, and appealing. His oratory will be hypnotic, for he will be able to move the masses to tears or whip them into a frenzy. He will control the communication media of the world and will skillfully organize mass publicity to promote his ends. He will be the master of every promotional device and public relations gimmick. He will manage the truth with guile beyond words, bending it, twisting it, and distorting it. Public opinion will be his command. He will mold world thought and shape human opinion like so much potter’s clay. His deadly appeal will lie in the fact that what he says will sound so right, so sensible, so exactly what unregenerate man has always wanted to hear.

[unlearner]

Christ did predict the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24 which was fulfilled in 70 A.D. But the discourse in this passage was in response to His disciples’ questions:

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

His answer was that they were not allowed to know when; there are six signs of His coming; and His coming is itself a seventh sign of the end of the world.

These signs are (collectively) unique in human history and did not take place in 70 A.D.

[redleghunter]

Consequently, they passed on the Johannine tradition of pre-millennialism advocated by the Apostle in the book of Revelation that he understood from the Old Testament, the earthy teachings of Jesus, and the revelation he received from the glorified Lord on Patmos. Second, the strong Jewish perspective that John shared, mainly because of the adherence to the Old Testament promises of Israel’s future glory and the reign of David’s Son, Jesus, permeated their view of last things. Last of all, the teachers of Asia Minor, unlike those in Alexandria (where a neo-Platonic renaissance had arisen) tended to understand the Scripture in less literal fashion, embracing allegorical interpretation.

Have to finish this but the first few paragraphs have the historical context nailed down correctly.

[redleghunter]

I know that no one, including satan knows when Jesus will return, so satan must have a man ready in every generation to possess. The world looks like it's building a platform for the antichrist.

Matthew 24:

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

[redleghunter]

An examination of the patristic literature from the late first century of the Christian era through the eighth century reveals that this sampling of the words of the Fathers demonstrates that what is known as Preterism held virtually no sway in the eschatological perspectives taught by the Church Fathers. Though not all were pre-millennialists, nor futurists in the contemporary sense, nonetheless the overwhelming consensus was that the Second Coming of Christ was future from each of the writers’ time frame and that it included the revelation of the Antichrist before the coming of Christ, an apostasy, a tribulation of the saints, and for some a millennial kingdom following the coming. Though the perspectives on the place of the Jews in the future kingdom of God, the millennial reign of David’s Son, and other important doctrines were not consistent among the Fathers, largely I believe dependent on the influence of the apostles in Asia and neo-Platonic thought in Egypt, nevertheless the Church looked for a future coming of Christ in judgment on a rejecting sinful world but a Blessed Hope of the coming of Christ forHis Church.

Good paper. Concluding paragraph above. A very honest assessment as he is not trying to say the church fathers were dispensationalists:)

[redleghunter]

Ping to thread.

[CynicalBear]

The 70AD fulfillment is so full of holes I can’t imagine how anyone would accept it. Those who promote the thesis have to allegorize scripture to beyond credulity but then also have to allegorize history itself. Jesus will return the same way He went into heaven.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Those who push the 70AD fulfillment use scripture beyond any understanding for the first many centuries.

[Iscool]

The false prophet His arguments will be subtle, convincing, and appealing. His oratory will be hypnotic, for he will be able to move the masses to tears or whip them into a frenzy. He will control the communication media of the world and will skillfully organize mass publicity to promote his ends. He will be the master of every promotional device and public relations gimmick. He will manage the truth with guile beyond words, bending it, twisting it, and distorting it. Public opinion will be his command. He will mold world thought and shape human opinion like so much potter’s clay. His deadly appeal will lie in the fact that what he says will sound so right, so sensible, so exactly what unregenerate man has always wanted to hear.

I know that no one, including satan knows when Jesus will return, so satan must have a man ready in every generation to possess.

Plus, he'll have to be very religious...He is going to mimic a true prophet...Someone who people will look upon as being able to speak infallibly...

Someone who has been around for ages; centuries, to lead people in that direction...To avoid the written words of God but to believe the infallible imposter...

[redleghunter]

I am sure, now with the legalization of pot in some states some of the end times theories will be even more bizarre:)

[redleghunter]

Someone who has been around for ages; centuries, to lead people in that direction...To avoid the written words of God but to believe the infallible imposter...

Could it be????

[CynicalBear]

>> I am sure, now with the legalization of pot in some states some of the end times theories will be even more bizarre:)<<

From what I’ve seen around here lately it doesn’t take pot. Although that may add some level of interest for sure. It does take a blindness that I haven’t seen before in my lifetime. We truly do live in an upside down world from when I grew up. From politics to religion it’s become truly bizarre.

[CynicalBear]

Now you’ve gone and dun it. Catholic apologist excoriation coming in 3…2…1

[Iscool]

Those who push the 70AD fulfillment use scripture beyond any understanding for the first many centuries.

Wouldn't it be a trip to try to sit down and have a real bible study with those folks??? It would look like a redacted CIA document by the time we were done...

[Iscool]

Now I wasn’t trying to imply anything...

[redleghunter]

Ah other than one Roman Catholic they don’t hang out on these threads. We may get some since the title has church fathers in it.

[af_vet_1981]

I offer this to the forum for your theological and exegetical enjoyment.

Thank you; I find it very telling that preterism is generally absent in the early Church fathers, very telling. The Church would have had to be left behind, abandoned, and ignorant for almost two thousand years to have gotten this wrong, which is essentially what the preterists claim.

[Salvation]

How can you, a non-Catholic post about what the Early Church Fathers thought?

????

[Seven_0]

Those who promote the thesis have to allegorize scripture to beyond credulity but then also have to allegorize history itself.

I think that scripture supports the idea that history is an allegory. I don't know how far you can take it, but I suspect that there is more to it than most people can see.

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Romans 5 tells us that Adam is a figure of Christ. Therefore the history concerning Adam gives us information about Christ.

Before the Bible was written, people understood types to be prophetic. They are not as important today, but they are still there and they can support or refute just about any position you have on questions of doctrine.

When used rightly, they increase your understanding. When used wrongly, you have a cult.

[CynicalBear]

>>When used rightly, they increase your understanding. When used wrongly, you have a cult.<<

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. John 14:16,17

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

Only those who rely on the Holy Spirit only for enlightenment.