"Have you been saved?”

The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | November 16, 2014 | DEACON MICHAEL BICKERSTAFF

[Elsie]

Salvation is at the last trump; that is why Yehova made his most distinctive appointed day, Yom Teruah, to watch for it.

Is your name to be found written there?

[Elsie]

Remain?

The Book says ALL will stand before GOD.

[Safrguns]

>>> “ If NOBODY is yet saved, then salvation must come after death.”
You’re just figuring that out? For all but the final generation, that is the undeniable fact that Yeshua and his apostles were trying to get across.

Is this the Catholic teaching? or your personal conviction?

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Tell me... Who gets a pass?

Who will NOT be cast in the lake of fire?

[Safrguns]

>>> Are you trying to make the point that ONLY ‘false teachers’ will be ‘worse off’?

No... I said that “They” are defined starting in verse 9 and 10, and further described in verses 11-19. Summarily they are referred to in verse 9 as “the unjust”.

To me, I see the “unjust” described in verses 11-19 as all those who for whatever reason hate all things righteous and lust after everything that is unclean. This would certainly include false teachers, but is not limited to them.

My point was that taking verse 20 out of context and using it to refer to people of faith is completely out of line with the previous 10 verses.

[editor-surveyor]

>> "Tell me... Who gets a pass? Who will NOT be cast in the lake of fire?" <<

Only those that truly believe as the word believe was understood in Yeshua’s time.

If you want to know what that means, read John's first epistle.

Yeshua asked us to obey his commandments. He said that those that love him keep his commandments.

What is “iniquity?” Not keeping his commandments; teaching others not to keep his commandments.

1John 2:

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

What is the definition of sin?

1John

[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

To me this seems simple and clear; he who is righteous gets the “pass.”

If we truly know him, he has written his Torah on our heart. If he has written Torah on our heart, we love his Torah, and keep it out of love. If that is not where you are, then you are not in him!

Do you think John, of all of the apostles, knew Yeshua? Do you want to believe that John is misleading us?

Was Paul lying in Romans 2 when he said

"[13] For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." ?

[editor-surveyor]

Yes, all will stand before Yeshua, as all judgment is given to him.

The elect will stand before him at the first resurrection, and the rest will stand at the Great White Throne 1000 years later, at the resurrection unto death, after the Earth and heavens have perished.
.

[editor-surveyor]

I have zero argument with John.

His first epistle is what I rely upon for clear revelation of Yeshua’s Way.

Those that do so will know that they have eternal life, because they keep all of Yeshua’s words, all of his Torah, because he has written it on their hearts.

That is exactly what John is saying in 1John 5:13.

[Safrguns]

>>> To me this seems simple and clear; he who is righteous gets the “pass.” If we truly know him, he has written his Torah on our heart. If he has written Torah on our heart, we love his Torah, and keep it out of love. If that is not where you are, then you are not in him!

If you consider yourself righteous under the law, then the truth is not in you.

You cannot come to truly know Him until you recognize that you are incapable of righteousness under the law, and instead rely upon His sacrifice on the cross which PAID for your unrighteousness.

When you stand before God, He will judge you according to your righteousness, or He will judge you according to the righteousness of Christ who took on and bore the penalty for your sins in your stead.

You cannot have it both ways. It’s either Christ’s blood sacrifice that saves you, or your ability to follow the law to perfection... which IS the standard of holiness.

Christ was perfect FOR us.

If we recognize that, and believe it, we will naturally respond in love and SEEK to follow in His example, even though we know we will not always succeed.

Only a prideful man can rest in his own righteousness.

[editor-surveyor]

I suspect that you have extremely low reading comprehension, judging by your responses.

You constantly post strawmen to me, and I attempt to show you the scriptures so that you can understand what the word really says.

Nothing you have posted to me has any reasonable relationship to what I have posted to you.

Do you think John is wrong?

Is what John has written in conflict with your beliefs?

[Safrguns]

>>> Nothing you have posted to me has any reasonable relationship to what I have posted to you.

Now you are making sense.

You go right ahead and choose to stand before God according to your own righteousness.

I’ll rely upon the righteousness of Christ, and His shed blood for my sins.

If Jesus and His apostles taught reliance upon the torah for salvation, then the Pharisees would have had no argument with Him whatsoever... and He would not have been brought up on charges of blasphemy and crucified... nor would the apostles and Christians who followed Him been hunted down and killed for their beliefs.

Do I think John was wrong??? No... but I think the straw-man you made out of him is.

[editor-surveyor]

Let me try to get through to you one more time:

You appear to believe that it is impossible to keep Torah, is that so?

If so, then you are in conflict with the word of God.

1John 5:

[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Get it?

His commandments are not so tough.

Nobody here has said that we are saved by keeping his commandments; we have old sins that have to be forgiven to be saved, but he who keeps on sinning (transgressing Torah) after learning Yeshua's Way will not be saved.

Hebrews 6 is no joke, nor is Matthew 7:23, nor Romans 2.

OSAS is an answer to a question that Yeshua never asked.

[editor-surveyor]

The righteousness of Christ is keeping his commandments, not a get-out-of-hell-free card.

You have to know him.

See what John says about knowing him.

[Safrguns]

>>> You appear to believe that it is impossible to keep Torah, is that so?

It is possible to keep the Torah, but not to perfection... which IS the standard for holiness.

Recall the rich man who approached Jesus and asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life:

Mat 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

You see, the rich man THOUGHT he was perfect.
Jesus showed him that he actually was not.
The rich man was unwilling to part with his possessions.
The rich man was relying upon his own righteousness.
Keep reading in that same passage... you will see that
salvation is a gift of God that cannot be earned with deeds or righteousness.

>>> Nobody here has said that we are saved by keeping his commandments; we have old sins that have to be forgiven to be saved, but he who keeps on sinning (transgressing Torah) after learning Yeshua's Way will not be saved. Hebrews 6 is no joke, nor is Matthew 7:23, nor Romans 2.

Actually, you did say it. You said that those who are righteous get the pass. However, in reference to past versus future sins, it does not make sense that Christs sacrifice on the cross would apply to only those sins committed up to the time of conversion, because the believer would then be held to a higher standard than the unbeliever... without the benefit of incorruptibility which we don't receive until the death of our corrupted body. In as far as consequences go which you referenced in Hebrews 6, etc., "death" in scripture does not always refer to eternal damnation. It often refers to physical destruction of the body. If I continue in sin, even after God warns me to stop, He most certainly will end my time on earth even though my place in heaven is secure.

[WVKayaker]

...However, in reference to past versus future sins, it does not make sense that Christs sacrifice on the cross would apply to only those sins committed up to the time of conversion, because the believer would then be held to a higher standard than the unbeliever...

Paul says it best in his letter to Rome... and proves the OBVIOUS error and presumptions of E-S

Romans 7: 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

8: 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ...

[Safrguns]

>>> The righteousness of Christ is keeping his commandments, not a get-out-of-hell-free card.... See what John says about knowing him.

The righteousness of Christ is and WAS the SIN-FREE LIFE that JESUS led on earth, QUALIFYING His blood sacrifice as a worthy payment for the remission of ALL mankind’s sins.

See the Law of Sin and Death, and Hebrews 9.

[Safrguns]

Thanks!... Romans 8 pretty much says it all.

[Elsie]

My point was that taking verse 20 out of context and using it to refer to people of faith is completely out of line with the previous 10 verses.

Oh?

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

This sure sounds like 'people of faith' to me!

[Elsie]

The elect will stand before him at the first resurrection, and the rest will stand at the Great White Throne 1000 years later, at the resurrection unto death, after the Earth and heavens have perished.

Makes no sense; according to what is written.

The 'elect' have their names in the Book of Life; right?

Yet at the GWT the BoL is looked into again?

What Scriptures show that there is a FIRST resurrection?

[Elsie]

Ah you Law Keepers!

I hope it works out for you...

[Safrguns]

>>> This sure sounds like ‘people of faith’ to me!

Sure it does... if you start at that verse.

That was my point.

You have to understand who “THEY” are in context.

You cannot get that unless you read the previous verses, or better yet as you posted, from the beginning of the chapter.