Posted on 04/16/2016 4:30:45 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?(Galatians 3:1-3)
In my years as a Christian and as a Pastor in particular, I have found that it is one thing to get caught up in aberrant and heretical forms of Christianity, and another thing to come out of them spiritually intact.
I have met many people who had at one time participated in the Word Faith excess, or in hyper forms of “Deliverance”(remember “Pigs in the Parlor”?), or perhaps had deeply drank of the so called “Toronto Blessing”or Pensacola hype artistry. They have come out of it, but not necessarily intact. I know folks who now feel foolish for giving their money to prosperity preachers, or making fools of themselves in one of those “River” meetings.
These people are no longer in the error, but neither do they have a wholesome and expectant faith in Jesus Christ anymore. Some of them have become engulfed in the discernment movement, to the point where that is all there is to their faith. Others are bitter or cynical about what they went through and cannot resume a satisfying Christian discipleship.
I know many who are now hypercritical, and emphasize only what they don’t believe.Some reacted to the shallow teaching, by going into extreme Calvinism, even denying that Jesus died for everyone.
False prophets, prophecies and teachings are very destructive.These heretics and the false Shepherds who welcomed them into their churches really do damage to God’s flock! This is no light thing, and God will call us all into account over these issues.Especially Pastors, who should have guarded the flock, but too often instead they sold it out for gain of some kind.
I believe that one of the major issues that those of us who are refugees from crazy and defective forms of Christianity must face, is repentance.
It is not enough to realize you have been deceived by a Hagin, or a Hinn or an Arnott, and subsequently we despise their movement now. We who were deeply involved in those things must undergo a “Re-think”, which is part of what repentance really means. We must ask ourselves, “What was it in me that attracted me to these unbiblical extremes?”. Why did I follow teachers who taught that we are all “little gods”? Why did we want to be “the power people”, elite Christians, better and deeper than “normal Christians”?
Only by facing up to the larceny in our own hearts, that part of us which resonated with those false apostles, prophets and teachers, can we then be healed and move on in our sincere love for Jesus and belief in His Word.
Jeremiah lamented that in his days, “The prophets prophesied falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means…”, but worst horror of all, “…my people love to have it so! And what will you do in the end?”
Here we are at the end which Jeremiah spoke of.
The end is where those who have ravaged the church have left us. In a time where a clear minded sober and united church is needed to stand for truth and righteousness, Lou Engle and other charismatics are trying to jump start the Azusa street revival of 1906, and in the process they are prostrating themselves before Agents of the corrupt Roman Catholic church!
I couldn’t have visualized anything more pathetic when pondering the church in the last days!
One astute reader gently pointed out to me that though I didn’t want to debate whether the Charismatic movement was of God or not, (I didn’t) she thinks I have opened it up anyway. Perhaps.
In view of all of the corruption and evil fruits that have been done on the name of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement; false and sensual revivals, blatantly false prophets fleecing the sheep, sensual music, experienced based religion, irreverence, shallow preaching and a false “love only gospel”…etc, you all could fill in the empty slots as far as all that is lamentable which seemingly has “come out” of the movement.
I think this part of the discussion is germane to those who must “re-think” their involvement, for only reality can truly help us…the “Truth can set us free”.
I have a very simple answer to the question , “Was the charismatic movement ever of God or not?”. My first response is – what about the parable of the sower? Four seeds were sown, on all kinds of hearts. The seed was good and true, but alas the hearts were either too hard, or distracted, or deceived and finally prone to wander.
Jesus warned us that it would be like this!
It is a temptation to just deny everything we once knew as false, so we don’t have to do the work of true and deep repentance, and the further work of taking the time to seek God and His Word for discernment to separate the “precious from the vile”.
I have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit was sovereignly awakening millions of people to the reality of God and of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.He visited a secularized, commercialized, jaded western world, and really touched many people who had drifted far from the God of their ancestors, and ignited the flames of love, prayer, spiritual hunger, evangelism, and longing for unity.
There is no axe to grind or denominational loyalty to defend, and certainly I can admit wrong in my life, but I refuse to discount the reality I have known.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I know that we need His reality in our day as never before. I believe we should all seek a full measure of the Spirit and we should long for our churches to be spiritual. Cessationism is as unbiblical as charismania!
I have no doubt that Satan has raised up the Copelands, Hagins, Oral Roberts and Benny Hinns, to discredit the idea that the Holy Spirit is vital and alive in all churches where people seek to be filled with the Spirit.
I have lived in the home town of a charismatic denomination headquarters. I found each church to be unique and like a family, each church like a child judges themselves by their family status while instead they should be relating to how their loving parents views them.
There are infiltrators and unbelievers in every church. There are children of God in every people, nation, tribe, and language.
As a member of a very very diverse family I listen to my Father through His word and know that no matter what any other member of my family does, my relationship with Him is all that matters.
Best message you have shared here yet.
Thanks for posting it.
Wow, well, Bill sorry to hear that. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues (”praying in the spurt”) is absolutely scriptural. The Sadducees of Jesus day didn’t believe in miracles or the resurrection of the dead. May today are of the same ilk. We, as believers in Christ are of the same body and the Spirit of God is the spirit of peace. But what you espouse here is simply not scriptural and hinders others from receiving all that God has for them.
I could not agree with you more.
Thanks.
I don’t see in the least that Bill doesn’t believe in miracles.
To compare him to the Sadducees because he points out the excesses of the charismatic movement and the error that has crept into it, is not legalism or lack of faith.
Your accusations against him are very serious and ought to be carefully thought through.
What charismatics call the baptism of the Holy spirit as I’ve seen practiced in Pentecostal churches is NOT Scriptural.
The gifts certainly are and the Holy Spirit gives them severally as HE will for the purpose of building up the church through edification of the body.
It was never presented as a *sign* of being *filled with the Spirit* , nor was it ever presented in Scripture as a special prayer language that increases ones effectiveness in prayer, or any other such thing that tongues is supposed to bestow on people.
And the whole slain in the Spirit thing has ZERO Scriptural support.
Three have been documented frauds within Pentecostalism and the lifestyles and morals and lack of integrity of those big name televangelists shows that they are not of God. But too often people are wowed by the glitz and glamor and love the feeling of belonging to the special in crowd, the *have’s* as opposed to being on the outside with the *have not’s*.
And I’ve seen some people who I’d hazard a guess are nothing more than experience junkies. If they don’t have their weekly falling over in church episode, they think their walk with the Lord is nosediving. All they live for is the next *filling* or *experience*.
The movement as a whole has taken what God provided and turned it into an end to itself and corrupted it badly.
Really good discernment, thank you. A couple of points in addition: 1. Remember what Jesus said to Simon Peter when he asked what was going to happen to John. It is none of our business what happens to them. 2. A lot of people are going to get saved out of the Great Tribulation. Jesus told us that as well. 3. Everything Satan has done and every choice every person has made has been accounted for in YHWH’s Plan. He turns everything for good for those who love Him. There was a period in our life when Joel Osteen’s positive message helped a lot. 4. We can’t understand how YHWH is using any of these people and for what purpose. So don’t spend a lot of time on that. Just read your Bible and pray!
One of your articles mentioned David Hunt and I can’t find the reference now, but you are correct, he was VERY vilified for quite a while.
We had one of his books I seem to recall. I think it was The Seduction of Christianity.
I don’t know if we still have it or not, but I would love to read that again.
Millions have been hoodwinked by Smith, Young and Wilson; too!
It has been my experience that believers that are consumed by ‘end times’ study; spiritual warfare; demon hunting; “full Gospel” theology and gift obsessions; prosperity theology; ‘sinless’ living and a host of other hobby horse topics are missing the boat in terms of their families and spiritual growth.
Furthermore, my growing conviction is that many of them may not even be, in fact, believers. God knows and I rest in that. However, I don’t have time for much of this stuff. Getting through the day applying the Word and encouraging others in the Way is sufficient.
Thanks brother- tell me specifically what is unscriptural about my sharing-
However, I don’t have time....
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You are right about that!
Revelation Chapter 12:
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
Nelson, Thomas (2009-02-18). Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (p. 1193). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
Previous Bible commentators have taken this as a symbolic vision about Israel (Mary) giving birth to Jesus, and marking the start of the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation.
However, since “knowledge had increased”, we can use star charting programs such as Stellarium to see that this could be a literal “great sign” in heaven.
The constellation “Virgo”, the Virgin, has always been identified with Mary the Mother of Jesus. The nine stars of Leo, the Lion (of Judah), form a “garland” above her head.
Jupiter has always been identified as the “King” star. It is striped (by His stripes we are healed) and has a large, red spot (they pierced His side).
Here is the sequence of events regarding the Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Virgo, Leo, Mercury, Mars and Venus
Mon, 21 November 2016 = 20th of Cheshvan, 5777
Jupiter enters Virgo crossing line from Spica to Porrima
Sat, 28 January 2017 = 1st of Sh’vat, 5777
Jupiter retrograde motion begins inside Virgo. “Gestation” begins??
Sat, 10 June 2017 = 16th of Sivan, 5777
Jupiter prograde motion resumes inside Virgo
Thu, 17 August 2017 = 25th of Av, 5777
Total Solar eclipse across America (from Portland to Charleston)
Sun, 10 September 2017 = 19th of Elul, 5777
Jupiter crosses Heze — Spica line. Virgin gives birth? Conjunction Regulus and Mercury
Wed, 20 September 2017 = 29th of Elul, 5777
New Moon, Venus — Regulus conjunction
Sun, 24 September 2017 = 4th of Tishrei, 5778
Sun at Virgo’s shoulders (clothed), the Moon is at her feet, Mercury, Mars, Venus are added to Leo’s nine stars as Virgo’s 12-star ‘garland’
The great sign in the heaven is complete. This formation has not happened in the past 6000 years and won’t happen again for at least another 2000 years.
Luke 21
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
26 “men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 “Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Nelson, Thomas (2009-02-18). Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (p. 1023). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
See the image at: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_1y_hLqVXf4/maxresdefault.jpg
Graphic says 23 September 2017, as it depends on where you say Virgo’s feet are. Besides, no one knows the day or the hour.
I don’t know for sure if Daniel’s 70th week has started. Sir Issac Newton’s calculation, which required Israel to be back in the land with control of Jerusalem (June 1967) worked out to September 2015. We don’t know if the Anti-Christ confirmed a seven year treaty back then, but it is possible. The colors of the Four Horsemen are White, Red, Black, and, while it is translated as “Pale”, the Greek can be translated as “Green”. These are the colors of the Islamic Nations that are going up against Israel.
The Revelation 12:1-2 Great Sign in the Heavens if September 23-24, 2017, so that would be two years into the Seventieth Week. The Revelation 12:3-4 sign is no where to be seen. However, there are reports of perturbations in the Cassini spacecraft orbit around Saturn, so the “great, fiery red dragon, may be out there as a brown dwarf, which would explain why the Vatican is operating an infrared telescope, called Project Lucifer, here in Arizona.
While there are folks who think that the “called out ones”, usually called the Church, will escape the entire Seventh Week, as I read it we are only offered escape from the final 3 1/2 years if we are counted as worthy, or just before the Anit-Christ is finally revealed, which ever comes first.
So we could very well be in the first half of the Tribulation, or Time of Jacobs Trouble. The thing with Bible Prophecy is that you only really know, for sure, after the event has happened.
So read your Bible and Pray! Do what the Holy Spirit leads you to do in this world, but don’t be too attached to it! Maranatha!
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Revelation 12
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
Nelson, Thomas (2009-02-18). Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (p. 1193). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
Since you fell in love with Christ several times but were tricked, keep searching!
You made your disgust for roman catholicism known, but why havent you taken a calm quiet nonemotional private look into it from their, our perspective?
No one asking for money, no church to attend...just read what they say they believe from their official mouth, google it....Catechism of the Catholic Church.
No flash, in your own room...take a look and note some questions about what they actually believe, from their own doctrine.
You wont be tricked...bored maybe, but not duped. It would not have survived this long without God’s direct providence....we humans are too inept and weak to have kept it going. Ask any pope, he will state that first thing!
Why repent for being duped for having jumped into Christ’s arms like a child...the sin is on the hucksters. I PRAISE your faith and I empathize. Hope is a virtue, keep searching!
Right, but there is probably a viable fraction in everything, right? I’m not going to let the stiffs who gave in to the world define all the Christian groups for me. That doesn’t seem right.
Freegards
Well, your wholesale condemnation of fellow believers and “full-gospel” ministers for one.
And for another, your wholesale take-down of the “charismatic movement” which at its heart was/is the advancement of teaching and helping fellow believers to receive the the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues (”praying in the spirit”) both of which are absolutely scriptural.
ping
Really? Where? Cause I haven't seen that kind of attitude presented in his writings.
And why do you presume that he HASN'T taken a "calm quiet nonemotional private look" into Catholicism?
Why is it that Catholics seem to think that if someone disagrees with them that it's because they don't understand Catholicism?
You wont be tricked...bored maybe, but not duped. It would not have survived this long without God’s direct providence....we humans are too inept and weak to have kept it going. Ask any pope, he will state that first thing!
If longevity were the criteria by which truth claims are measured, then Hinduism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism are all right because they have ALL been around longer than Catholicism. Islam has been around almost as long.
Longevity is not a measure of God's protection, favor, or anointing.
While humans maybe are too weak to keep a religion going on their own, the enemy of our souls isn't.
Attributing longevity to the work of God and verification that the religion is a work of God, then makes the rest of those religions works of God and Truth.
Are you ready to go there?
Besides, if any non-Catholic religious leaders led the immoral, hedonistic lifestyles that some of your popes have, then they would rightly be condemned as frauds and heretics. Catholics use the likes of Hinn, Copeland etc as evidence against non-Catholics that they are wrong and *Protestantism* etc is not from God, and yet when it happens within Catholicism, it's dismissed as evidence that Catholicism IS from God because of the very argument you used.
That's quite a double standard there.
BTW, if your religion is boring, or if someone can be bored in it, it isn't saying a lot positive about it. God is NOT boring. His work is not boring.
If what you are doing religiously is boring, then perhaps you should look to see if God is in it.
And for another, your wholesale take-down of the “charismatic movement” which at its heart was/is the advancement of teaching and helping fellow believers to receive the the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues (”praying in the spirit”) both of which are absolutely scriptural.
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Jim, Here is a little actual scripture about speaking in tongues, from someone who is quite an authority on it.
One Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing †with the understanding.
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice †be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
Nelson, Thomas (2009-02-18). Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (p. 1116-1117). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
I agree, MM. Been there, done that. What the "charismatic" (and it is not that) followers want is instant full spiritual maturity without going through the growing pains of experiencing the same things Jesus did, though for Him sinless, it was even greater agony for the sin and death in the world, with which we must likewise cope.
"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the
things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal
salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb. 5:8.9 AV).
I really understand what 1 Cor. 13:10 is about.
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (1 Cor. 12:10 AV)
"That which is perfect" is the fullness of the Written Word of God, complete. No more to be added to it, no more special revelation. It is all we can handle. The foretelling, the word of wisdom, the tongues fail through lack of any need for them. Their time is long ago past, with the coming of the completed progressive revelation for everybody. Full of wonder in itself, a light for our path, the Word illuminated by Spiritual discernment is sufficient.
All we have to do now is to be saved, be filled with the Spirit, and live the abundant life.
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be
filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and
spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your
heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the
Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God"
(Eph. 5:18-21 AV).
Equating this spiritual command to the Ephesians (and hence us) with that to the Colossians:
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns
(and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to
the Lord.
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of
the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him"
(Col. 3:16-17 AV).
Two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Letting the Word of God dwell in one richly in all wisdom is being filled with the Holy Spirit. We are baptized in the Holy Ghost at the moment saving faith is exercised. There is no more Spiritual baptism than this. Teaching and admonishing one abother with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts as to the Lord is submitting to each other in edification. This kind of charismata can't get any better!
We are to grow in spiritual maturity from being a newborn spiritual babe, to spiritual infancy, from thence to spiritual childhood, concluding the growing in spiritual stature unto young adulthood, having overcome the wiles of the wicked one. From there it is deepening in experience and godly wisdom until God has perfected us for His earthly use as elders, fathers, and mothers in the assembly. When our bodies have worn out, then Heavenly fellowship with our Savior.
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the
ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the
knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the
measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the
sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in
wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all
things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and
compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to
the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh
increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love"
(Eph. 4:11-16 AV).
Thanks for your labors, MM, and we thank Pastor Bill for sharing his insights with us, eh?
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to
present you faultless before the presence of his glory with
exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty,
dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24,25).
May this be a blessed Lord's Day for all!
It's more than enough for me to handle. It's more than enough to keep me busy for a lifetime.
My friend who is into the word of faith stuff said once that she's into the power conferences. It used to be love, love love, and now they're moving beyond that.
But God tells us that there's no greater thing than love. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3
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