Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

King James English and Orthodox Worship
Fr. John Whiteford's News, Comments, & Reflections ^ | 09-09-2016 | Fr. John Whiteford

Posted on 09/10/2016 9:21:42 AM PDT by NRx

King James English and Orthodox Worship


One doesn't usually look to Orthodox Jewish sources for guidance on the kind of English that is best suited for worship, but years ago I stumbled across some very telling comments in the preface to the book "To Pray as a Jew," by Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin. Commenting on his translations of the prayers his book would discuss, he says:
"I have decided to retain the use of "Thou," "Thee," and "Thy" in all passages that address themselves directly to God. The more contemporary "You" and "Your," which I had at first considered using, made me uncomfortable in some instances, although I find it difficult to explain why this should be so. The Hebrew atah (and the Yiddish du) reflect the familiar and the intimate approach to God with which I am comfortable. Still, English seems to demand, at least in some places, the more reverent "Thou" and "Thy." (To Pray as a Jew: A Guide to the Prayer book and the Synagogue Service, (New York: Basic Books [Harper Collins], 1980), p. xx.).
I would argue that Rabbi Donin was right in his gut, but wrong in his explanation. It makes no sense to limit the use of "Thee" and "Thou" to God, and so he correctly senses the inconsistency of his translation choices here. He is correct, however, that in English there is a need to use more traditional language when praying because we sense that the sacredness of the act requires a more reverent form of the language. Traditional English also has the added advantage of being more precise, because it allows for a distinction between the second-person singular pronoun ("thou"), and the plural ("you"), which is present in both Hebrew and Greek, and often this distinction is very important to the meaning of a text.

From time to time we hear some in the Orthodox Church arguing that English-speaking Orthodox Christians should abandon the use of "King James English" and simply use contemporary English in our translations of the Scriptures and the services. This is, however, a fairly recent phenomenon. From the time that the first modern English-speaking Orthodox Christians began translating the services (the earliest known example being in 1760), up until the 1960's, it never seems to have even occurred to anyone that they should translate the services into anything other than the traditional style of English that we find in the King James Version, and the pre-1980's editions of the Book of Common Prayer.

Even non-native English speakers followed this pattern. Nicholas Orloff, who translated a number of texts at the end of the 19th century did so, though these texts are notoriously clunky, and no longer in common use. Likewise Fr. Seraphim Nassar, published a compendium of liturgical texts in 1938 (affectionately known as the "Nassar Five Pounder") that used traditional English, and this text is still in use today, In 1906, Isabel Hapgood first published her Service Book, which was blessed by the Hieromartyr Tikhon of Moscow, and funded by the Tsar-Martyr Nicholas II (who spoke English in the home with the Tsarina Alexandra (who was raised by Queen Victoria), and their children). She was an Anglican, and she clearly modeled her translation on the style of the Book of Common Prayer. This text is likewise still in use today, and was highly influential on subsequent translations of the services. More recently, the Lenten Triodion translated by Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) and Mother Mary is probably one of the most standard English texts in use in the Orthodox Church today, being in use in the vast majority of parishes that use English. The fact is, one cannot find a complete set of service books in English that are not in traditional English, and the obvious reason for this is because this how the English speaking Orthodox Christians generally think it ought to be, and this has been true for more than 250 years.

But some might object that this is just due to Protestant influence. The fact that this is not true is shown by the oldest Catholic translation of the Bible in English, the Douay Rheims Bible, as well as the text of the "Hail Mary" that is still in general use:
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
The Orthodox approach to translation has generally been a conservative one. Slavonic was never the street language of Slavic speakers. It was a high form of Slavic language, with a huge amount of created terms, using Slavic root words, and putting them together in the same way Greek theological terms were constructed. The end result was a highly elevated language which was within reach of Slavic speaking people, but was not the language of the street.

When the services were translated into Chinese and Japanese, for example, the style used was that which was used in traditional Chinese and Japanese religious practice... which was an older form of these languages.

Furthermore, contrary to popular belief, the Greek of the New Testament was not really "street Greek." It is certainly in a form of Koine Greek, but it is in a Semitic style that it full of Hebraisms rooted in the Old Testament, both the Hebrew original, and the Greek Septuagint (which likewise is full of Hebraisms, see The Semitic Style of the New Testament, and Was the Bible Written in ‘Street Language’?, by Michael D. Marlowe). Furthermore, even in the Hebrew Old Testament, you find the use of intentional archaisms, not to mention the fact that Jews continued to use the Hebrew text of the Old Testament long after Hebrew ceased to be the spoken language of the people (and in fact, they continue to use it to this day).

The Orthodox Church has always taken the position that the language used in our services and translations of Scripture should be within reach of the people (which is why Christians did not just continue to use the Hebrew Old Testament, and why we have always had so many different liturgical languages in use), but the Church has not felt the need to use the language of the street, or to regularly update our translations.

This does not mean that we should never update our translations. While I would argue that when it come to the text of Scripture we should begin with the text of the King James version, I would not argue that there is no need to correct the KJV or to update it when changes to English have rendered a particular text very difficult for the average person to properly understand. One does have to learn some vocabulary and get use to some older grammatical forms, but for the most part, these are not difficult.

Traditional English is also not a dead language. It is simply a form of English used in worship and in other solemn contexts. People use this language every day in prayer, and they do so naturally. Even among those who pray extemporaneously, they are able to pray in this manner without any difficulty, nor is what they say difficult to comprehend. For an example, I would refer people to one of the many extemporaneous prayers Billy Graham gave at his evangelistic rallies: https://youtu.be/X1eHJDJWx3Q?t=1m4s

I think we should take to heart the comments of Metropolitan Athanasios of Limassol, Cyprus to Dr. Kyriakos Markides:
“We must avoid addressing ourselves to God in a superficial casual way. For this reason Elder Sophrony goes so far as to say that the language we use in prayer must be different from the ordinary language of everyday usage. That is why he insisted that the language of the liturgy should not be translated into the contemporary spoken vernacular.”
“A lot of people today would strongly object to that suggestion,” I pointed out. “They demand that church services be conducted in the spoken ordinary language so that they can understand what is being said. Why did Elder Sophrony hold to such a position?”
“Elder Sophrony claimed that when we conduct the liturgy using everyday language, we lower the level of our communication with God.”
“How is that so?” I asked.
“He believed that ordinary language carries meanings and images from our daily reality that usually lack the element of holiness and purity. On the other hand, when we address ourselves to God in a language that has, as it were, an exclusive usage within the boundaries of the Ecclesia, the very words and sounds of that language evoke sacred feelings and images that facilitate communication with God. A special language that offers precise and exclusive meanings can automatically be experienced as the language of the Ecclesia. It carries greater spiritual force” (Markides, Kyriakos C., Gifts of the Desert: The Forgotten Path of Christian Spirituality, Random House-Doubleday, NY, 2005, quoted by Nun Nectaria (McLees), in an interview with the journal "Road to Emmaus').
For more information:

An Orthodox Look at English Translations of the Bible, By Fr. John Whiteford

Liturgical Languages and Living Tradition: an Interview with Nun Nectaria (McLees)

A Linguistic Bridge to Orthodoxy In Memoriam Isabel Florence Hapgood, by Marina Ledkovsky

You can watch a pretty good documentary about the history of the King James Bible:



For more from the narrator, Adam Nicolson, see his excellent book on the subject: God’s Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible, (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 2003).

Here also is a lecture on the subject by Adam Nicolson:



TOPICS: History; Orthodox Christian; Prayer; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; english; kingjames; kjv; language; orthodox; translation; translations
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-39 last
To: seowulf
Interesting. The rule of using you/thou (vous/tu)would still hold grammatically though. The use is not just formal/informal, superior/inferior. I did not mention that the you/vous form is also used for addressing more than one person or an audience, and that is an important distinction that modern English has lost.

Here I'll mention that languages can and do distinguish both by number and by levels of formality:

singular "informal" (or "familiar" or other terms)
singular "formal" (or "polite" or other terms)
plural informal
plural formal

[and there may be more forms in languages with more grammatical numbers or levels of formality]

Some languages have clearer distinctions than others. I can think of languages where some of these forms are identical. For example, German uses the formal "Sie" for both singular and plural, and overall Latin American Spanish uses "Uds." ("ustedes") for both informal and formal plurals.

Each language may have its own interesting problems for how things may be translated.

21 posted on 09/10/2016 4:06:59 PM PDT by Lonely Bull ("When he is being rude or mean it drives people _away_ from his confession and _towards_ yours.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Claud

Bede only translated the Gospel of John into Old English. And, as you said, there were others who came before Tyndale who led the efforts. One important one was John Wycliffe. He translated the Bible into Middle English. Tyndale translated most of the Bible into Early Modern English.

Literacy of the hearer is not essential to people receiving the scriptures in their own language. However, translating the scripture is. People can better understand and benefit from a translated Bible rather than merely hearing human commentary on it. Plus, before literacy people had to use their memories more. They could memorize scripture without being able to read it.


22 posted on 09/10/2016 4:13:40 PM PDT by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: seowulf
Studying Biblical Greek is one of the best ways to supplement study of the Bible. One of the best short familiarization online courses is the nine-lesson (counting the Introduction page as one lesson) is on Bible Truths website:

http://www.bibletruths.net/Greek%20Course.htm

It's worth a glance. I recommend it. The author is very proficient in providing easily comprehended material. Each lesson has a checklist of questions whose answers will be hand-checked and evaluated.

The alphabet is not hard to learn, if one works at it for about a wee, using flashcard you make up for yourself, with the letter on one side, and its sound spelled out on the other. But without the alphabet, you can't continue. All the letters of the Greek alphabet are in the "Symbol" Truetype font of any Windows installation.

You don't have to have done Latin, or French, or Spanish, or German to understand these short lessons.

Let me encourage you to give it a try!

23 posted on 09/10/2016 4:30:35 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: unlearner

And that’s the other problem—English kept changing, so a “vernacular” Bible a few centuries on wasn’t useful any longer. But like I said, English Bibles just weren’t a priority mainly because there was no real audience for them. Commoners weren’t reading English, and they couldn’t afford a Bible written out longhand anyway.

I go to the traditional Latin Mass, which is almost exactly what an Anglo-Saxon would have observed every Sunday from the 800s right on to the Reformation. There are generally two readings from Scripture in Latin. Then the priest reads them again in English, and only then does he comment on them.

So they likely were hearing plenty of direct Scripture passages from the pulpit.


24 posted on 09/10/2016 4:32:32 PM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Lonely Bull

These uses of current languages have nothing to do with translation of the Bible from Latin or Greek into precise English.


25 posted on 09/10/2016 4:38:59 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin
Well you can clearly draw your own misshapen conclusions. You presume that you know what the Holy Spirit intended. You presume too much. You assign to me things that I have not said. And you assume too much there as well.

The fact is there are many books that were not considered canon because they did not know where the books came from. The standard that the church used was which ones were quoted and referred to by early Church fathers (before the Catholic Church rose).

But since you want to cross the bridge of accusing me of things I have not said and accusing me of wrongdoing.

You do not have the spirit of meekness required of a Christian. If you did you would not be accusatory but make your case explaining why you think certain books should be canon.

I say that there are certain books that are not canon because there is no evidence that they were.

You can have the last word. I don't waste much time on people of your kind.

26 posted on 09/10/2016 5:08:19 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: ColdSteelTalon
Good that you don't, "waste much time on people like you", otherwise your delusions would fall away and force you to face reality, something I'm sure would upset you.

I didn't draw a single misshapen conclusion, far from it in fact.

I merely explicitly stated what logically follows from own statement of what you believe. Whether explicit or implicit, what I stated is the only possible conclusion anyone can draw from what you espouse. A conclusion which just happens to be the exact same conclusion anyone who prays for guidance from Holy Spirit rather than relying on their Self and Self Alone would arrive at.

Drive that pink caddy on down the wide freeway to your doom if you like. You've been informed so ignorance is no longer an excuse.

have a lovely day

27 posted on 09/10/2016 5:31:36 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory !!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: ColdSteelTalon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible

The Gutenberg Bible (also known as the 42-line Bible, the Mazarin Bible or the B42) was the first major book printed in the West using movable type. It marked the start of the “Gutenberg Revolution” and the age of the printed book in the West. Widely praised for its high aesthetic and artistic qualities,[1] the book has an iconic status. Written in Latin, the Gutenberg Bible is an edition of the Vulgate, printed by Johannes Gutenberg, in Mainz, in present-day Germany, in the 1450s.


28 posted on 09/10/2016 5:42:47 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1
These uses of current languages have nothing to do with translation of the Bible from Latin or Greek into precise English.

That post was not intended to concern English, which I was going to address in another post. This will be that post.

I did consider mentioning explicitly there that English is one language that has one form for both singular and plural, for some odd historical reason, with the problems mentioned earlier in this thread. (And there are more biblical examples of the singular-plural distinction that have yet to be mentioned in this thread.)

I wouldn't mind if "thou" and its forms had survived into contemporary language. (I don't wish that English had a clear T-V distinction.)

I don't disagree with your preference for its use. The reasons for its use should be explained, as in an introduction, lest readers think that its use is primarily for "reverence" or something.

In the Bible (and other texts), these "thou" forms wouldn't be reserved only for God. For example, Luke 22:31-32 in the KJV is

[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
[32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Of course, neither "you" nor "thee" here refers to God. A translation (such as the original RSV) that reserved "thou" forms for God would have nothing but "you" here.

29 posted on 09/10/2016 5:46:34 PM PDT by Lonely Bull ("When he is being rude or mean it drives people _away_ from his confession and _towards_ yours.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Lonely Bull
English and German are related languages which go back to a common ancestor, and Yiddish is derived from the German spoken by German Jews in the Middle Ages (with a lot of words from Hebrew and other languages mixed in). So English thou and German/Yiddish du have a common origin.

The differences between English and German often fit into patterns--so the thou/du correspondence can be matched by think/denken and other examples.

30 posted on 09/10/2016 6:01:36 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin
You logic is flawed. And you dont correct out of love you do it out of anger. Take the time to read what the Bible says about the fruit of the spirit and ask yourself if you are showing it.

I have faith in Christ and that faith has saved me. You can carry on like you have and that will get you nowhere.

31 posted on 09/10/2016 9:03:59 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Claud

“English kept changing”

And has continued to do so, which is why the KJV is great for people who grew up in church reading and memorizing it. But the average “unchurched” English speaker today cannot understand it. Which is why translations like NKJV help.

“English Bibles just weren’t a priority mainly because there was no real audience for them”

There was certainly a need for the translation work of people like Tyndale. The Bible had not been translated into the type of English the average English-speaking person understood. Even if they were not literate, they needed to hear the word of God directly rather than mere commentaries on it. It took the sacrifices of men like Tyndale to give it to them. Attending church services where the Bible was read to them in their own language provided a deeper understanding AND allowed them to memorize and meditate on scripture even if unable to read it.

The tradition of reading the Bible to the congregation goes all the way back to the apostolic era:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

“Keeping” implies both obedience and remembering scripture:

Proverbs 4:21
Do not let them depart from your eyes;
Keep them in the midst of your heart.

However, illiteracy does not preclude people from learning scriptures:

Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

Today, organizations like Wycliffe Bible Translators continue the work of bringing the Bible to the world in native languages. There are over 1800 languages in the world today that still do not have a translation of the Bible even started.

While today, more than ever, people around the world have the opportunity to learn other languages and how to read, it is still part of God’s plan to bring the message of salvation to EVERY nationality, ethnicity, language, and culture.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...


32 posted on 09/10/2016 10:45:38 PM PDT by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: ColdSteelTalon

Don’t trouble yourself with those here who would love to revive the Holy Roman Empire and throw true believers to the lions again or burn them at the stake as their predecessors in their so-called “Church” were doing.

They make grandiose claims about what the Holy Spirit had to do in order to submit to their Romish doctrines, yet they themselves do not listen to Him and discredit those who do.

The same people will defend to the death their idolatry and their fervor for getting others to engage in their idolatry with them. They love to post promotions of their idolatry on this forum labeled “Caucus” in order to close off debate from those who disagree. Yet they are the first to rush in and attack those who recognize the continuous unrepentance of their so-called “Church” which continues to this day.

Just let God deal with them. He will.


33 posted on 09/10/2016 11:09:39 PM PDT by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1

The real target is to intake the Word of God in our thinking (our soul, mind) when we read Scripture.

The Bible isn’t a sacred text. The Word of God is sacred and by reading Scripture from the Bible, it is possible to understand His Word. His Word is sacred and is used by God the Holy Spirit to sanctify our scarred souls.

A good translation might avoid a lot of confusion, but even with poor translations, if one is thinking His Word, i.e. the meanings He has communicated to us, then our Living God makes them efficacious for our continuing sanctification.

Meanwhile, a reader of the best translations can still read into Scripture his preconceived meanings and miss the Word of God.

Our target in study of Scripture is to understand His Word.


34 posted on 09/11/2016 2:53:49 AM PDT by Cvengr ( Adversity in life & death is inevitable; Stress is optional through faith in Christ.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr
That is true. No translation is inspired. But the faithful copies of the text in the original tongues is the Holy Word of God. That is why we still need somebody who can read the original languages and interpret the Word, placing it in the tongues we can hear, read, and understand, preaching it expositionally. The purpose is that such preachers can help remove doubt and disagreement over them.
35 posted on 09/11/2016 10:09:21 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: ColdSteelTalon

http://www.kjvonly.org


36 posted on 09/11/2016 1:01:09 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: seowulf

http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/kutilek_spirit_itself_defect.htm

“THE SPIRIT ITSELF,” OR,
THE GREATEST DEFECT IN THE KING JAMES VERSION

By Doug Kutilek

[Reprinted from “As I See It,” vol. 2, no. 9, September, 1999]


37 posted on 09/11/2016 1:03:24 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: fishtank

No thanks.


38 posted on 09/11/2016 3:18:13 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: fishtank; ColdSteelTalon; seowulf
Don't draw any rach conclusions on whatever Doug Kutilek has to say. David Cloud, a very good fumdamental Baptist teacher and missionary, is world-traveled in research on the Bible texts. On the website Way of Life Literature Bro. Cloud gives a clear synopsis of the value of Kutilek's criticisms. Here is one excerpt:

======== beginning of excerpt =======

"KUTILEK VS. THE KJV: WHO SHOULD WE FOLLOW?"

"I will answer this, first, by observing that Doug Kutilek is not a Bible translator of renown nor a recognized Greek or Hebrew scholar, whereas the men on the august committee that gave us the King James Bible were all of that and more. For Kutilek to condemn their work in such a glib manner is like a person who paints by numbers authoritatively criticizing Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel. (In The Glorious History of the King James Bible we give the credentials of the KJV translators.)

It amazes me how that a man with literally no serious credentials in anything rushes in with no compunction to criticize a translation that went through such an extensive purifying process.

The KJV is not just another English version. It was a thorough revision of the Tyndale translation, which was already excellent. William Tyndale had a rare gift of translating Greek and Hebrew into simple, lovely, and forceful English, and the KJV committee left most of his work intact (e.g., nine-tenths of the First Epistle of John and five-sixths of the Epistle of Ephesians is Tyndale’s).

======== end of excerpt ========

Be advised. Let me encourage you to read this through, and to examine other articles on the site regarding the KJV.

Also, you might want to look at the Christ-centered Bible For Today site, which has an excellent history of fundamentalism in PDF format:

http://www.biblefortoday.org/

http://www.biblefortoday.org/PDF/TheHistoryoFFundamentalism2.pdf

39 posted on 09/11/2016 3:44:20 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-39 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson