Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.
The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.
Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:
| On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ |
And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed. |
More commonly the prayer is translated:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:
| Latin Text Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta |
English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen. |
The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.
LOL, ‘so get lost’? Nice try, but is not my words which are pricking your heart.
So you think that when a man gets on one knee to propose to a woman, he’s worshipping her?
It clearly uses a form of theotokos. See it yourself on the picture of the fragment. Looks like theoto...then probably a K.
Theotokos does mean literally “God bearer...”
It’s good Trinitarian theology if you think about it for a bit.
Mary was bearing the incarnate, second person of the Trinity. Otherwise, Jesus was not God. And we know He was. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Try again. A man on one knee proposing is not praying to her for supernatural intervention. But you will keep trying ...
If you want to go complex, that is your choice.
Better to keep it SIMPLE.
Rev 8:
…3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were rolls of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.…
Better to keep it SIMPLE.
I provide you a source from the First Vatican Council that contradicts your claim and you call that complex??
Ok. Very simply put...the RCC did not "give nor write" the OT or the NT.
"3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (Revelation 8:3-4)
Again, the Holy Spirit provides approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, but zero to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord
"Praise the Lord, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word." (Psalm 103:20-21)
There is also no prohibition against such a thing as consensual cannibalism. . .
You are begging the question, since you have not demonstrated that requesting prayers from created beings is inconsistent with Scriptural principles (in contrast to cannibalism). Your entire argument pivots around an equation of worship and prayer which is the opposite of what Catholicism explicitly teaches--you are attacking a straw man.
Not entirely, but as said, we were also dependent upon the Jews for OT manuscripts and our knowledge of that era, as well as to archeologists. . .
So your faith is dependent on archaeologists, who are created beings.
Do you really believe that SS means only Scripture is to be used and is wholly formally sufficient, which thus excludes even reasoning?
That is its implication, and there are prominent Protestant theologians who have taken it in that direction--never entirely consistently, because you can't avoid using reason--which is why the Catholic Church teaches that faith is in harmony with reason.
Which is mere an argument by assertion for something you cannot show, and the Old Roman Creed does not do it, but Caths have no problem making doctrines out of what is not seen.
I did show you. You can easily compare what's in the Old Roman Creed with what's in the NT and see Paul quoting versions of it. You can also compare Justin Martyr's description of Christian worship with the Catholic and Eastern churches' Mass service, and what the Didache teaches with the Catechism's moral teachings.
Typical abuse of Scripture, for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 does NOT teach purgatory, for it not only refers to the judgment seat of Christ, which does not take place until the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering commencing upon death. This alone disqualifies I Corinthians 3 from referring Purgatory, while the suffering is that of the loss of rewards (with the Lord's displeasure), which one is saved despite of, not because of.
It's typical because that's how every early church commentator interpreted the passage--Jerome, Augustine, Origen, Cyprian, Ambrose, Gregory, Theodoret, Rupert. "Loss of rewards" is part of what's going on there, but fire is also punitive. And you meet a personal judgement of your deeds before the Final Judgement, as illustrated in the story of Lazarus and in Revelation where we see a distinction between the first and second deaths.
Literally spirits [pneuma] just [dikaios] perfect [teleioō] but why not look at the context and see what "perfect" refers to, rather than in isolation? Hebrews is about the "better" (key word) covenant, high priest, promises, etc. by the redemption of Christ (and thus exhortations to continue in faith and to not forsake so great salvation), and as part of this we see that these OT saints were not made "perfect" in that they awaited the redemption of Christ by which both OT and NT believers enter Heaven.
The context also references Jerusalem temple worship and its heavenly archetype--see the reference to the "assembly" in the same passage. As for the verse itself, where do imperfect spirits go, if they're still waiting to enter Heaven?
I apologize for not answering your reply in more detail, but I was up until 5 a.m. due to trying to keep up with this thread last night, and cannot repeat the same today. I will prayerfully ponder your points and review the links you have supplied. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I’ve researched it from the primary sources, not just second-hand rumors spread by anti-Catholic apologists. Your invocation of “context” in Deuteronomy in 6:8 is a vague non sequitir, since you do not demonstrate how I have taken anything out of context. I did not attempt any exegesis of the passage, I merely drew your attention to it. You are misunderstanding what the scapular is for. I also invite you to do more research.
And praying for supernatural intervention isn’t worship, either. If someone asks you, “MHGinTN, please pray for me,” they are not worshipping you.
In the year 1251, in the town of Aylesford in England, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock, a Carmelite. She handed him a brown woolen scapular and said, “This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.” In time, the Church extended this magnificent privilege to all the laity who are willing to be invested in the Brown Scapular of the Carmelites and who perpetually wear it.
True devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary consists in three things: VENERATION, CONFIDENCE AND LOVE. By simply wearing the Scapular, we can tell her every moment of the day that we venerate her, love her and trust in her protection.
Now contrast this with Deuteronomy 6:4-9
4“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6“These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7“You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8“You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9“You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. Deut 6:4-9 NASB
There is no allowance for the "True Devotion" to Mary as taught by Roman Catholicism.
As noted before....the attempt to equate the false teaching of wearing the Scapular to keep you out of the hell fire is in contradiction of the NT. Further, the failed attempt to use the passage in Deuteronomy 6 to justify wearing the Scapular shows a lack of understanding of proper Biblical exegesis.
I’m not dead yet ... and I would not be ‘expected’ to field a billion requests per day and act on them. Want to make another try at justifying your poor analogy?
I would address the issues your post raised, but if you’re out of time there’d be no point. Please let me know if/when you’d like to continue this discussion.
Blessings to you and yours.
YEs! Of course!
No, they weren’t.
You disagreed with my interpretation, but you have not refuted that the passages I cited in Revelation show prayers going through angels and men in heaven to God.
It is not disputable what is in the passages.
My interpretation takes the bible at its word, that God allows our prayer to go to Him through others, even those already in heaven that we can’t speak to directly. Your interpretation discounts clear scripture.
You may be right, I don’t ask you to believe what I believe, but I hold to my interpretation for my own beliefs and you have no standing judge my interpretation as incorrect.
Are you saying there is something wrong with a person holding to their reasoned, footnoted, and bible based interpretation of scripture?
Love,
O2
TTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGLLLLLLLLIIIIIIINNNNNNNEEEEEEEE
There is a blindness so pervasive that you cannot reason it through for most who are worshipping ‘through’ the Catholic Mary. No matter how you segment their assertions and show the antithetical nature, they cannot be allowed to question their religion ... and it is not Christianity.
Not going to replay the discussion again.
Difference being. You’re not consecrating your heart to mhgitn. You’re not praying to him or relying upon him for salvation. You don’t have idols of him you kneel before or light candles before. You’ve not attributed supernatural abilities to him.
Make this one easy.
God inspired the Bible writers and the Church put the Canon of the Bible together.
Done responding.
Not surprised.
More of the same old Christian bashing. Gets old very fast.
Makes those who hate Christians so very happy.
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