The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

Aletelia ^ | April 28, 2017 | Philip Kosloski

[af_vet_1981]

No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses nineteen to thirty one,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[aMorePerfectUnion]

You do understand this is a story?

[Fedora]

Thank you for your reply as well. Jesus did explain his parables, but his disciples often did not fully understand them until later. It was not until the Last Supper that they remarked, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech" (John 16:29, twelve chapters ahead of where we're discussing). But even then they did not fully understand many things he said. So he told them that when he sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit "will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26). It was not until the Road to Emmaus that "he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45).

All this lies long ahead of John 4. In John 4, Jesus is clearly using a metaphor when he shifts the topic from literal water, which is what the Samaritan woman initially thought he was talking about, to "a spring of water welling up to eternal life". What Jesus said to her about this built on what he said to Nicodemus about water, spirit, and truth back in John 3. Prior to that, John had introduced the themes of spirit and truth and water back in John 1, where the context was a contrast between John's baptism with water and Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit (also see Matthew 3:11 and the parallel passages in Mark 1:8 and Luke 3:16). What Jesus means by "in spirit and truth" is conveyed in this context. He is talking about a new form of worship that will be based on baptism in the Holy Spirit instead of just baptism in water (see John 1:33).

Jesus does indicate the center of worship will be moving from Jerusalem and that future worship will be "in spirit and truth"--I am not disagreeing with you on that. He does not say that this excludes worship in Rome, though--that is adding to what he says. Rome is not the topic under discussion in this chapter. Nor is legalism--that is something Paul talks about in Galatians, but it is not what Jesus is talking about here.

When Jesus does talk about Rome in the Gospels and in his Revelation to John, he references the prophet Daniel and predicts the evangelization of the Roman Empire (the οἰκουμένῃ mentioned in Matthew 24:14). God had a plan for Rome just as he does for all nations--"he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live" (Acts 17:26). God sent Peter and Paul to be martyred in Rome for a reason--a reason Paul lays out in Ephesians 3 while he was imprisoned in Rome: "For this reason, I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles. . .This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel".

[Fedora]

So you think quoting the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth is distorting the NT?

[Salvation]

I like your homepage.

[Fedora]

It’s also the opposite of an Aaron Rodgers pass that gets intercepted by the Seattle Seahawks when replacement referees are officiating.

[PeterPrinciple]

Historicity is a very strong argument

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and there is the essence of the problem. The Word of God as standard of truth, or our own understanding..........

[ealgeone]

So you think quoting the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth is distorting the NT?

In context no. However, the Hail Mary takes those passages out of context and then adds non-biblical admonitions to them.

[Fedora]

Jesus told the church in Ephesus to repent, but he also praised their deeds, hard work, and perseverance. He followed this up by encouraging the church in Smyrna, which he did not have any criticisms for. His comments to the other churches in Asia Minor were mixed—for instance, he said Sardis had a few people who were still faithful. Paul likewise had high praise for the Thessalonians and Philippians. The Church did not fail, though local churches often did.

[Fedora]

Thank you.

[Fedora]

Actually, you’re supposed to meditate on those entire Scriptures in context when you recite the Hail Mary. The short version without the full Scripture readings is to save time for practicality, but there is a longer version where you read long sections of Scripture in context between the decades. And there aren’t any admonitions in the Hail Mary.

[PeterPrinciple]

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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Interesting, where eyes go to. My eyes read it that praying to the dead will save no one! Isn’t that the point of the story?

So how does one get saved?

[ealgeone]

The major problem with this prayer is that it is a prayer to Mary. All prayer is to be directed to God...not created beings.

There are other problems with it but praying to a created being vs the Creator is a huge problem.

[PeterPrinciple]

Read again. It says repent OR I (Jesus)will leave.

Now which of the seven churches are YOU.

[af_vet_1981]

If one read the Bible one would learn that the first generation churches failed and Jesus told them to REPENT and go back to their first love. See the first few chapters of Revelation.

So you believe the church Jesus built failed ?

The churches in Revelation, members of the one holy catholic apostolic church, did not fail in Revelation. They were warned, like Israel was warned, and some were close to failure, but there is no record of what happened afterward in the book. We do not know if they made it or not. The LORD Jesus Christ warned them so that they would not fail, but they have to cooperate and do what He said, and so it is with all of us who have ears to hear.

The seven churches were warned that if they did not repent and do the works the Messiah commands them, He would:
1. church of Ephesus -- remove their candlestick
2. church in Smyrna -- not really threatened, more like informed of their trials to come
3. church in Pergamos -- fight against them with the sword of His mouth
4. church in Thyatira -- kill the children (followers) of the female teacher who called herself a prophetess
5. church in Sardis -- blot their names out of the book of life
6. church in Philadelphia was not threatened
7. church of the Laodiceans -- spit them out of His mouth.

[PeterPrinciple]

Paul likewise had high praise for the Thessalonians and Philippians.

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and was constantly correcting them................

[Popman]

——The oldest known Marian prayer—except for Luke 1:28. And Luke 1:42. Etc.-——

Simply amazing how these verses are twisted out of context.

[Fedora]

If the Hail Mary were worshipping Mary, that would be a huge problem; but that is not what’s going on. Per Webster’s, to “pray” in a general sense simply means to implore or entreat, i.e., to ask a favor. It does not necessarily imply worship. The Hail Mary is asking Mary to pray to God for us, per the principle that the prayer of a righteous person is “powerful and effective” (James 5:16). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there are plenty of examples in Scripture of Paul praying (in the sense of asking) other Christians to pray for him.

[Popman]

-——Also, it really amuses me when a protestant is discounting something that happened AD200-300 because it’s so far removed from the time of the apostles. It’s only another 1250 years or so until the protestant churches arrived.——

That’s illogical....and conflating two separate issues.

[ealgeone]

If the Hail Mary were worshipping Mary, that would be a huge problem; but that is not what’s going on. Per Webster’s, to “pray” in a general sense simply means to implore or entreat, i.e., to ask a favor. It does not necessarily imply worship. The Hail Mary is asking Mary to pray to God for us, per the principle that the prayer of a righteous person is “powerful and effective” (James 5:16). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there are plenty of examples in Scripture of Paul praying (in the sense of asking) other Christians to pray for him.

Catholics have to redefine what worship means to avoid the reality they worship Mary.

The examples you cite of Paul asking others to pray for him differs greatly from the Hail Mary in that:

Paul is not praying to them.

Paul is addressing actual people on earth.

The Hail Mary, when incorporated with the Rosary, is primarily focused on praying to Mary.

All prayer in the NT is directed to God.