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To: aMorePerfectUnion
1. It's difficult to have a productive discussion about history if you don't cite any specifics. Judging by your response to #3, you seem to be confusing Gnostics and proto-Gnostics with Catholics. In point of fact, Catholic writers who refuted these heretics such as Irenaeus (without whom we would know little about what the heretics whom you seem to have in mind were teaching) also taught the Catholic Marian doctrines you are lumping in with the Gnostic heretics warned about in the NT (who had entirely different views about Mary than Catholics did and do).

2. If you understand the difference between prayer as worship and prayer as request in the general sense, where are you getting your prohibition against praying to saints in the non-worship sense from, since there are no Scriptures that prohibit this, and there are Scriptural examples of requesting prayers from other believers such as the ones I cited in the other part of my response to this item? Quote me a verse that prohibits requesting prayers from deceased saints.

3. What do you think the phrase "prayers of the saints" means in the verses from Revelation I cited? Who are the martyred saints mentioned there praying for?

Why are you assuming the Apostles didn't teach what their leading proteges practiced? And who do you think preserved the teaching of the Apostles, if you want to throw out the same 2nd-century sources we rely upon for our knowledge of what NT books the church accepted as Apostolic?

As for "Syncretic Paganism accelerated under Rome," again, if you don't cite any specifics, it's difficult to have a productive discussion. But if you're against paganism, you might want to consider that the Reformation's approach to exegesis was influenced by the Renaissance revival of paganism and by the late medieval adoption of Islamic fundamentalism's Scriptural interpretation methods.

4. I already quoted the requested passages in #3, which uses the phrase "prayers of the saints". If you will read these passages in context rather than ahistorically, you will see there are allusions to the Jewish temple and to early Christian worship, such as references to incense and (if you continue down to 6:9) altars. This reflects the role of the departed saints in late Judaism and early Christianity, and is consistent with practices that have been preserved in both Roman Catholic worship as well as Eastern churches that far predate the Reformation.

I don't need to redefine what "early church" means to make my point. I mean Matthew, Luke, John, Paul, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irenaeus from the first two centuries, as well as writers from the succeeding centuries such as Alexander of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasis of Alexandria, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazarien, all of whom are considered as part of the Apostolic and Patristic Ages by Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant scholars alike, and all of whom attest to early Marian doctrine. But you seem to be redefining "early church" as "Gnostic" (if I am understanding your response to #3 correctly), which is certainly not how I define the early church and not who I am talking about.

Your comment about fleeing the truth and idols sounds like you might be the one fleeing the truth, since you don't address my point. You're claiming to follow Scripture but you're following an approach to exegesis that post-dates the NT by many centuries; and you're also using your own authority to prohibit practices that are not prohibited by Scripture.

5. If deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us, what do you think Jesus was doing with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration? There is nothing in Scripture that teaches the deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us--that is your own assumption, not something from Scripture. In addition to the passages I have cited from Hebrews and Revelation that allude to the deceased being present in Christian worship, Jewish practice of the time also assigned great importance to deceased saints, which is another source of data relevant to this discussion. I don't have a good source on this in English handy, but there's a German scholar named Arnold Goldberg who cites a lot of ancient evidence on this--for some bibliogaphic info, see Ra'anan S Boustan, "From Martyr to Mystic: Rabbinic Martyrology and the Making of Merkavah Mysticism", page 156.

Yes, the prior chapter in Hebrews describes the story of faith, and it describes those who are deceased as a "cloud of witnesses", and again in a context that is heavy with references to Jewish and Christian worship, attesting to the belief already present in 1st-century Jewish Christianity that the faithfully departed were present with the living during worship.

6. I appreciate the discussion as well, and will keep you in my prayers.

25 posted on 04/29/2017 11:22:24 AM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora
"Quote me a verse that prohibits requesting prayers from deceased saints."

... non-prohibition is the last sanctuary of those who cannot affirmatively support their cherished beliefs. It is a fallacious argument. The Scriptures do not teach that the idea of The Matrix is wrong either, now do they?

"prayers of the saints"

... Different meaning than "prayers to the saints."

"I don't need to redefine what "early church" means to make my point. I mean Matthew, Luke, John, Paul,

Then please quote what they said. Where did Matthew, Luke, John, Paul advocate, command, demonstrate or record any believer praying to a departed saint?

"If deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us, what do you think Jesus was doing with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration?

...Christ brought them to that geographical location for His glory. In the passage, the disciples are not speaking to Moses or Elijah. There is no evidence, even in this context, that Moses or Elijah were aware that the disciples were present to observe, nor heard. If you become God, presumably you would be capable of the same miracle, but we both know that isn't happening, so it remains a category mistake in this discussion.

There is nothing in Scripture that teaches the deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us-

...You continue to flee to "invisible evidence" to try to prove your (I assume) cherished practice. It is still as invisible as the King's new clothes. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate putting pizza in our shoes will guard us against satan, or attract angels around us.

I appreciate the discussion as well, and will keep you in my prayers.

... Thank you! Please pray to God. I'll do the same for you.

33 posted on 04/29/2017 12:06:34 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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