Half of Protestants Agree With Catholics That Good Deeds and Faith Are Needed for Salvation: Pew

Christian Post ^ | 09/01/2017 | Stoyan Zaimov

[GCFADG]

man owes to God all things

Thank you for your edifying post.

[CTrent1564]

Well stated, the only Alone that one can 100% affirm by Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (as expressed via Councils and Fathers) is Grace Alone. It is God’s Grace by which Humanity is saved. Faith is a Theological virtue which is connected to Grace, but so is Love and Hope, which are along with Faith are lived virtues to also be lived out.

However, as several posters noted, it is clear that many Americans who profess Catholicism on one hand or Protestant Confessions on the other are totally confused as to what their respective Traditions teach.

[HarleyD]

Yes God did choose and gave each graces, but each had the ability to accept or not accept.

I don't recall in scripture where God gave Samuel a choice to follow Him. Same with John the Baptist who was chosen before he was born. David stated that he was chosen before he was born (Psalms 71:6) as well as Paul (Gal 1:15). Do you see a pattern? These are "special" people singled out by God. Rather they are just like every other believer, chosen by the grace of God:

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood (not a Jew) nor of the will of the flesh (can't make a choice) nor of the will of man (can't do good works), but of God.

There is nowhere in scripture where a person called by God refused to go. The closes one can come to is Jonah and we know how well that worked out for him.

... and others chose selectively what teachings they accept and believe.

Joh 10:25-29 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Amen.

[Zuriel]

**Your view is in error and not supported by a complete view of the subject. You hang on a few verses but the totality of scripture supports my position so you will not change my position on this. I’m done. Good-bye.**

It would have been fine for you to say that you strongly disagree, and end the conversation, but you think that you can make an accusation like that and then declare the conversation over? Tell me you’re not a fan of Algore.

I hang on a few verses? I can give you the long version, and will if asked.

Let’s look at the few verses you refer to:

Jn 3:16
That verse is great, but no greater than the ones that precede it. For before it, the Lord gives critical details on HOW to believe. A man must be born of the water and the Spirit or he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. There is a sound, the origin whereabouts unknown, that is heard whenever someone is born of the Spirit. Do you believe what the Lord taught concerning how to believe?

Acts 16:31
There is a “rest of the story”.
32 “And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were IN his house”.

They were all at the prison keeper’s house at that point.

33 “And he took them the SAME HOUR of the night, washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway.”

They left the house, obviously to a place with an ample source of water. Then after that, they return to the house:

34 “ And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.”

Rom 10:9
The context is critical. Paul has been expressing his sadness (in chapter 9, and continuing into chapter 10) concerning the lost state of his unbelieving Jewish brethren. He is speaking TO church brethren in Rome (1:5-7)(10:1), who he had reminded earlier of their being “buried with him by baptism unto death” (6:3,4).

He is telling them in chapter 10, that even though the Jews had rejected the Lord, they could still be saved (10:12). But, they have to hear the gospel preached by a preacher sent by God (10:13-15). God’s preachers in Acts commanded and performed water baptism in the name of Jesus, and they did so with minimal delay.

Eph 2:8,9
Do you not realize that Paul was writing to people that were already converted (1:1). He didn’t have to go into detail about it. Most of Paul’s epistles begin in like manner.

**Other times repentance alone is named (Lk 24:47, Acts 3:19, 5:31, 17:30, 2 Cor 7:10).**

Those will be addressed later, as I have family obligations for the next few hours. Remember you made the accusations, and therefore cannot expect to deny defense of those accusations.

Peace.

[af_vet_1981]

... Samson? Moses? David? etc. The list goes on. Did Israel choose to become God's nation? Did any other?

There are the elected of God chosen before the foundations of the world and then there are all the others. The scriptures are very clear on this. Don't ask me why this is, it simply is.

The LORD chose Saul to be king over His inheritance Israel. He had the prophet anoint Saul. The Holy Spirit came upon Saul and he prophesied, being turned into another man and God gave Saul another heart. The problems came later due to disobedience.

[HarleyD]

You left out Perseverance of the Saints:

Chapter XVII- Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Westminster Confession of Faith (scripture references at site)

Believers can never lose our salvation, yet we should never be so bold as to believe that we could not fall into grievous sin such as David did with Bathsheba which would bring reproach upon our loving God and Savior Jesus Christ. (Yes, David rightfully stated his sin was against God. 2 Sam 12:13) It is to this end we must diligently seeks God's grace and mercy so we are not led into temptation.

Actually, the Apostle Paul claimed those to whom he wrote were Christians in the introduction to both epistles.

Of course he does. He is writing to the church at Corinth. If your priest were to go into the church wouldn't he address everyone as a Catholic? You don't start singling out people. But if you know that the church is holding all sort of drunken orgies and people are not living a Christ-like life, I would hope the priest would have a few choice words to say to them. It is not the responsibility of the priest to tell people they're not a believer. But it is his responsibility to tell them they're acting like pagans (and some of them might be). One can certainly tell them they REALLY, REALLY need to examine themselves if they are in the faith but we can't tell them they're not saved (although we might have our doubts).

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God

Do you notice anything here about the will of God???

[ADSUM]

Yes, we believe in Jesus as God, yet when shown the love from God it is natural to return that love by action (or works).

Many still do not believe the words of Jesus in John: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54

Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven.

Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

[Elsie]

Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Mary must have missed this verse when she invented the Brown Scapular.

For a low; LOW! price of ONLY $11.95...

 

 

 

 

 

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[Luircin]

If you do a good work with the expectation of reward, does that really make it a good work?

[af_vet_1981]

You left out Perseverance of the Saints:

In post 118 posted on 9/4/2017, 6:59:41 AM by HarleyD the question reads: "Is this why Catholics believe one can lose their salvation?"

The Westminster Confession of Faith is a relatively modern (1646) product of King Henry VIII's Church of England. It is illogical to expect a Catholic to anticipate and rely on it to answer the original question.

This is what the Catholic Catechism contains about perseverance:
1. Perseverance in faith
   
   162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.46
   
   
2. 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71"
   
   
3. Finally, our battle has to confront what we experience as failure in prayer: discouragement during periods of dryness; sadness that, because we have "great possessions,"15 we have not given all to the Lord; disappointment over not being heard according to our own will; wounded pride, stiffened by the indignity that is ours as sinners; our resistance to the idea that prayer is a free and unmerited gift; and so forth. The conclusion is always the same: what good does it do to pray? To overcome these obstacles, we must battle to gain humility, trust, and perseverance.
   
   
4. IV. PERSERVERING IN LOVE
   
   2742 "Pray constantly . . . always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father."33 St. Paul adds, "Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance making supplication for all the saints."34 For "we have not been commanded to work, to keep watch and to fast constantly, but it has been laid down that we are to pray without ceasing."35 This tireless fervor can come only from love. Against our dullness and laziness, the battle of prayer is that of humble, trusting, and persevering love. This love opens our hearts to three enlightening and life-giving facts of faith about prayer.

[af_vet_1981]

Do you notice anything here about the will of God?

Yes, King Saul. Perhaps the Apostle Saul had his namesake in mind when he wrote this to the Corinthians:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

First Corinthians, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verse twenty seven,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[HarleyD]

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift,

Didn't I say in one of my early posts that this is why the Catholics believe one can lose their salvation? Thank you for confirming this.

The Westminster Confession of Faith is a relatively modern (1646)

No more than the Council of Trent statement of faith or a number of other recent Catholic documents such as on Mary. I'm sure you would not say they are wrong. The only difference is that our Protestant forefathers referred back to early church fathers writings whereas our Catholic friends changed their theology. The things once deemed heresy is now accepted and they justify it as being "enlightened". This is nothing more than a form of Gnosticism.

They really should simply stick to the scriptures.

[Luircin]

Uh... I don’t think that Saul is relevant here, because we were talking about him as *king*, not status of salvation.

[HarleyD]

1Co 9:23-27 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul is not talking about the lost of his salvation. He is talking about being disciplined enough to run the race. If one cannot be disciplined in the things of God, we will be ineffective and useless to the cause of Christ. People will see how we are living and our witness is worthless. Moreover it bring reproach upon the body of believers. We are disqualified or castaway from the ministry of God.

How many preachers (and priests for that matter) have we witnessed this occurring? Do you think a pediophile priest (or pastor) will ever be an effective witness for the cause of Christ again? They don't endanger their salvation but they certainly endanger their ministry and the ministry of others.

[af_vet_1981]

Uh... I don’t think that Saul is relevant here, because we were talking about him as *king*, not status of salvation.

1. Chosen by God
2. Anointed by God
3. Given the Holy Spirit by God
4. Made into another man by God
5. Given another heart by God
6. Rejected later by God for disobeying commandments

Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me to day, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: And they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

...

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

...

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

First Samuel, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses one to ten,
First Samuel, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses thirteen to fourteen,
First Samuel, Catholic chapter twenty eight, Protestant verses fifteen to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[af_vet_1981]

Paul is not talking about the lost of his salvation. He is talking about being disciplined enough to run the race. ...

No, castaway =

adokimos: failing to pass the test
Original Word: ἀδόκιμος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: adokimos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-ok'-ee-mos)
Short Definition: failing to pass the test
Definition: failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit.

Check the eight occurrences of this word and see how fatal it is.

It is the same word from the second epistle used ( and translated as reprobate) here:

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Second Corinthians, Catholic chapter thirteen, Protestant verses five to six,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[af_vet_1981]

... They don't endanger their salvation but they certainly endanger their ministry and the ministry of others.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew, Catholic chapter eighteen, Protestant verses six to nine,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[Zuriel]

**I have not the slightest idea what your point is.**

My post was intended to show, how in the most detailed conversion account in Acts, the Lord’s supper is not even hinted to.

The money comments were to make it clear to you or RCs and Prods alike, that the gift of the Holy Ghost isn’t some warm fuzzy, “you just automatically receive it when you believe”, but with no miraculous sign. The sorcerer was totally amazed when witnessing the event; so much so, that he thought he could buy the power to give the gift of God.

I don’t believe he would have offered a penny if all he saw was people repenting and making statement of faith. That’s all I was taught for conversion at the Calvinist church I attended the first 28 yrs of my life.

[daniel1212]

If you do a good work with the expectation of reward, does that really make it a good work?

Certainly: any volitional response by a person is a "work," and no one is saved while they are comatose, but when by God';s grace they believe on the Lord Jesus to save them on His account.

The issue is whether man's response to grace and by grace merits him salvation, or whether this is by his faith being counted for righteousness and made accepted in the Beloved on Christ's account, and the answer is the latter.

However, since faith and works go together then one can be promised salvation if they believe as well if they something which faith effects, such as being baptized. But God can see saving faith before it does its works, and declare one righteous, and which is vindicated when they obey.

[Elsie]

Adam and Eve were chosen by God, but they rejected God and thus we had original sin.

Oh?

Just WHO were the others that were NOT chosen??

---

A&E were CREATED by GOD.

Besides; they did NOT 'reject' GOD; but did not BELIEVE God.

Did GOD really say...?