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To: ealgeone
I'm going to hate myself in the morning, but ...

Do you know the reasoning that led Chalcedon to affirm the title “Theotokos” (Deipara, God-birther) for Mary?

If Jesus is God and Mary is the Mother of Jesus, How is she not the Mother of God?

It's a question about the meaning of saying Jesus is one divine person combining two natures, human and divine.

If someone says, She is the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God, that seems to imply that Jesus is not God.

If someone says, She is the mother of his human nature but not his divine nature, that seems to say that human mothers are not mothers of persons but of natures.

Mothers are not absolute sources. In natural births, part of the genetic material is exogenous to the mother. To the extent that the person is shaped or influenced by his genetics, part of the child is not entirely attributable to his mother.

So, to say that part of who or what Jesus is does not find its origin in Mary is not different from what we would say of any mother and child. “Theotokos” does claim anything like Mary is the entire source and origin of Jesus any more than my mother is the entire source of me.

Indeed, my impression is that in the biology/embryology of the time a popular idea was that the father supplied the, so to speak, “quiddity,” the what-it-is-ness of the child while the mother supplied the “matter,” the what-it-is-made-of.

Arguments against the title “Theotokos” or “Mother of God” have to be clear about what motherhood is. Otherwise they may end up in straw man territory, arguing against what is not asserted.

15 posted on 12/13/2017 6:22:09 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Sta, si cum canibus magnis currere non potes, in portico.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Arguments against the title “Theotokos” or “Mother of God” have to be clear about what motherhood is. Otherwise they may end up in straw man territory, arguing against what is not asserted.

Actually there needs to be a clear definition of Who God is.

The original intent I believe is something different than what has manifested itself in Roman Catholicism and the overwhelming worship of Mary.

If Mary is the "mother of God" then by implication she is the mother of the Spirit and the Father.

It could be further argued this elevates Mary above all three in that a mother has to exist before the offspring.

There is currently an appeal among some Roman Catholics to have a fifth Marian dogma.

The proclamation of the Dogma of Mary Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate by the Holy Father will enable the Mother of Jesus to shower the world with a historic outpouring of grace, redemption, and peace in a new and dynamic way—an event which Marian apparitions like Fatima refer to as the “Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/

It seems the birth, death and resurrection of Christ is somehow insufficient for Roman Catholicism.

I really think this whole issue of Jesus' deity and humanity could have been resolved by an appeal to John 1.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. The Witness John 6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. The Word Made Flesh 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-14 NASB

16 posted on 12/13/2017 6:47:49 AM PST by ealgeone
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