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All in God's time
OSV.com ^ | 12-19-17 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 02/03/2018 7:23:35 AM PST by Salvation

All in God's time

Question: God always was and always will be. We are talking about millions of years. How can I better understand this? Eugene Herkins, Naples, Florida

Answer: The wording of your question indicates you are thinking of time in a linear way. To be sure, it is difficult for us to grasp such a long period of time. However, God is more than very old, he is eternal. Eternity refers not merely to the length of time, but more accurately, to the fullness of time. For God, there is no tomorrow or yesterday; everything is now, all time is present to him at once.

To illustrate, consider a clock. Out at the edges there are numbers. For example, there is 12, 3 and 7. These indicate the passage of time from our perspective. Between 12 and 3, three hours pass, and the hands of the clock need to pass a certain distance to get there. But now, move your attention to the center point of the clock and consider that 12, 3 and 7 are all equally present to the center dot; 12 is just as present as 3 or 7.

And this is a kind of picture of God’s perspective. He lives at the center, in the fullness of time. He sees the whole sweep of time at once. God does not wait for time to pass; everything is now. The day of my birth is just as present to God as the day of my death.

Because God is not waiting for my life to unfold, he is not surprised by any of my decisions or what I do. He has always known and supplied all graces necessary to prompt my free acts to be good rather that evil. This is what we mean by his providence. The word comes from the Latin “pro” (for, or ahead) and “videre” (to see).

While the experience of eternity is hard for us to imagine, the key point is to understand that eternity for God should not be described as a long, long, time but rather, the fullness of time; all time at once. Past, present and future are as one for God, just as all time meets and intersects at the center dot of our clocks. The whole sweep of time is one for God.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; time
**the key point is to understand that eternity for God should not be described as a long, long, time but rather, the fullness of time; all time at once.**
1 posted on 02/03/2018 7:23:36 AM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Monsignor Pope Ping!


2 posted on 02/03/2018 7:24:30 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

The universe and time exist within God - and He can exist in our individual hearts - what a wonderful paradox!


3 posted on 02/03/2018 7:29:17 AM PST by trebb (I stopped picking on the mentally ill hypocrites who pose as conservatives...;-})
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To: trebb

I liked the center of the clock analogy, where God can see everything and know everything in everyone’s lives.


4 posted on 02/03/2018 7:31:06 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

That is still a very hard concept to grasp, at least for me.

I used to hear theories by different scholars who supposed that all history on Earth is happening at once. In other words, Jesus’ crucifixion, the Revolutionary War, President Trump’s inaugural speech are (have?) happening concurrently.

When Jesus was on the Cross, he said to the thief that “TODAY, you will be with me in paradise.”. This concept of ‘today’ has puzzled many, myself included.

Could the answer lie in what you have posted here”?


5 posted on 02/03/2018 7:34:43 AM PST by Paulie (America without Christ is like a Chemistry book without the periodic table.)
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To: Salvation

I like that too - had one pastor try to explain it in a way to make it easy to grasp w/o being a philosopher - he said take a football field and paint it white. The take a really sharp pencil and make a tiny dot on the field - the dot represents time where we exist and the white represents eternity where God exists - He has no trouble keeping track of the dot. Sometimes analogies are as close as we can get to grasping the “I Am”.


6 posted on 02/03/2018 7:36:55 AM PST by trebb (I stopped picking on the mentally ill hypocrites who pose as conservatives...;-})
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To: Salvation
Edwin Abbott wrote a novella in the 1800s entitled Flatland (download it for free here), about a two-dimensional land where the inhabitants can't grasp the idea of a third dimension.

We can imagine ourselves standing outside of a two-dimensional surface and experiencing it all at once, like people in the stands of a stadium looking at a ball field, and even imagine ourselves outside of a three-dimensional polyhedron and experiencing it all at once, like people in a spaceship looking at a planet. We should therefore be able to understand, if not fully grasp, the possibility of standing outside of space and time and experiencing it all at once.

My question, for which I don't think there is an answer outside of heaven, is not how God experiences eternity, but how we will experience eternity. It is just speculation, but I suspect that we will experience time there, the way we experience space here: we will be at any given time there that God wills for us, just as we are at any given space here, but locked into the linearity of time--except for when He gives us prophetic vision, and unlocks the linearity of time to show us His plan and His view of what we think of as the future, and He thinks of as a point in His eternity.

7 posted on 02/03/2018 7:47:14 AM PST by chajin ("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
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To: Salvation
I think many people forget that time is a creature. We are placed within it, not God. God is not subject to one of his creations.

I think Tolkien understood this when he made the character Tom Bombadil in Lord of the Rings. A creature not effected by evil. I thought he was a metaphor for Father Time.

8 posted on 02/03/2018 7:47:44 AM PST by Varda (Liberalism IS hate)
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To: Salvation

God created physics to manage the universe, and the language of mathematics to ascertain it.

I love trying to discern God’s fundamental aspects, but as Israel means to “struggle” with God, it’s difficult to understand the depths of the evil he has loosed to the world.

Isaiah 45:7


9 posted on 02/03/2018 8:08:50 AM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug
Someday I[m going to have to tell the story about the moment in my Senior Year of High School when I was suddenly floored by the realization -- really, I had to sit down in a heap, in a hurry, when I realized --- that God's language is Trigonometry.

:oO


10 posted on 02/03/2018 8:33:37 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Unless I am mistaken, I'm infallible.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

As we get into calculus and number theory it becomes ever more exciting. And one needn’t be an egghead. It just takes a little attention.

Good material on the web. Just tie it to consistency. That’s the beauty of it.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow....


11 posted on 02/03/2018 8:49:53 AM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug

You are so right. God is brilliant.


12 posted on 02/03/2018 8:56:09 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Unless I am mistaken, I'm infallible.)
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To: Paulie; Salvation; onedoug; Mrs. Don-o
Time and how it involves the Rectification process is one of my favorite subjects. "Like it never even happened."

I've been posting here and there about the wagon wheel effect, and also the vanishing point. The word for the world and eternity (olam) actually means a vanishing point. The vanishing point is an apex, a vertex, the chief corner of a triangle. In Hebrew the word is 'kodkod', the same as the crown of the head [of the one who was separated from his brothers].

Perspective 101. Joseph's "coat of many colours" was a ketonet passim, literally a tunic (ketonet) of stripes (passim). Pas (singular) is also the word for a railroad rail. Put them all together and noone even needs to look up to see a ladder ascending into the heavens:

The history of the American railroad is the story of man going to new horizons.

As we have already seen, early on Joseph is linked to the fulfillment of Jacob's legacy.

These are the generations of Jacob, Joseph was seventeen years old ...[Genesis 37:2]

At the outset, the Torah connects Jacob with Joseph. Of all his sons specifically Joseph holds the key to not only Jacob's but the family's mission.

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48909747.html

When Joseph was born, Rachel named him as a prophecy that God would add to her another son. People just assume that she meant Benjamin, and look no further down the line. She was looking upon Joseph. To see Joseph was to see another son (descendant) through Joseph. Rachel's perspective involved the Long view. Explains why Jacob was smitten, and why Joseph is the foundation of the nation.

The Messiah joins the two tribes. It's more literal than people think. Everybody has mother and a father. David was born where Rachel's soul went out.

On one hand, time is linear: lines... lineage. OTOH, everything can be seen and experienced in the present.

Daniel 12:7

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever [olam] that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

What time is that? Looks like 10:10 in the morning. The vertex (center of the clock) is the heart.

Mirrored (reflected) it would be 20:20 in the evening. 20/20. 10:10 flipped over is the same as the vanishing point imagery, with the heart (vertex) being what is up, with "20/20" right on the tip of the fingers.

A time (10), two times (20), and half (10 + 20 = 30). That's a general visual. There is another way the verse reads [mathematically], based on the gematria of the phrase and the values of individual Hebrew letters. I've posted that before, but nobody actually takes it seriously, simple equations appearing no different than 'numerology' gibberish.

In any case, see what I mean? It sure beats watching television!

The end is wedged in the beginning and the beginning in the end.

All in God's time

13 posted on 02/03/2018 10:21:14 AM PST by Ezekiel (All who mourn(ed!) the destruction of America merit the celebration of her rebirth.)
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To: Salvation
Light and sound have no stopping point.

When He said, "Let there be light" that light and sound is still traveling and it is still within Him.

When you begin to grasp that everything. Time, space, light, every thing that every was or will be is inside God you begin to have a very dim concept of what He is.

But don't think too long about it or your brain will explode.

When He said that His thoughts are higher then our thoughts He was not kidding.

14 posted on 02/03/2018 10:36:46 AM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Not a Romantic, not a hero worshiper and stop trying to tug my heartstrings. It tickles! (pink bow))
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To: Ezekiel
The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how our end will be?"

Jesus said, "Have you then discovered the beginning, so you inquire about the end? For where the beginning is, there shall be the end. --The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, 9-12

I have always be fascinated by these lines.

Also:

His disciples said to Him: When will the Kingdom come? Jesus said: It will not come by expectation; they will not say: "See, here" or "See there". But the Kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth and men do not see it. --13-18

15 posted on 02/03/2018 6:07:31 PM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug; Phinneous
I am finally getting back to this. Apologies for the delay. I needed to read through your reference.

[Too funny, but watch how this reply grows and grows! Typical. Better than television.]

>>>

Wow, that's quite a treasure trove. Last night I was watching Rav Ginsburgh's latest shiur (topic: King Solomon) and he had mentioned the life of Isaac (180 years) because it equaled the sums of the ages of the first three kings of the House of David (David, Solomon, Rehoboam). 70 + 52 + 58 = 180 (starting at minute 17 to about 21, regarding both 180 and 208, Isaac).

Therefore, this verse from the tGGoT jumped out at me:

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

The sum is 180 but is also breaks down into the life of Isaac as divided by the birth of Jacob and Esav: 60 and then 120. The context is seed, which again, directly relates to Isaac:

Genesis 25

25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.
27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.

Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Genesis 26:12-13 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. 13 And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great: (People really miss out when they don't check the rest of this chapter.)

And it just keeps going (it's the difference between live active yeast and the dead).

Compare:

The first [seeds] came out (the man of the field, Esav)...

Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them.

after that came his brother out (the plain man, Jacob)...

And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop

That land = good soil, because as Gen 26:12 says, Isaac received in the same year as he sowed, an hundredfold.

Which reminds me (as the topic is time and timelines)...

The traditional date for the death of Rachel (and the birth of Benoni) is 2208, meaning that Jacob was 100 years old. This is easy to calculate:

Abraham was born in 1948
Isaac was born in 2048 because Abraham was 100
Jacob was born in 2108 because Isaac was 60.
One hundred years later comes to 2208, the year Rachel's soul went out.

Note the date when Rachel's soul went out [from the house of bread, i.e. a bakery - reyach/ruach] and Benoni was born. Without the thousands, the year was 208, the gematria of Isaac. The same year that Jacob was 100.

Note the meaning of Benoni: "son of my 'sorrows'" [exertion, panting, as if "all that work for nothing (ain)"], but more literally son of Oni, meaning my strength, vigor, esp. in the sense of virility/progeny. Cf. Poti-phera the priest (a facilitator, minister i.e. one who administers) of On.

Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. 13 And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great:

Genesis 35, year 208:

19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath ["fruitfulness"], which [not the word asher but lit. she written as he] is Bethlehem.
20 And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day.
21 And Israel journeyed, and spread his tent beyond the tower of Edar.

Rachel, she is Bethlehem, the house of bread, the bakery where the buns are in the oven (ben, aven) and the smallest child recognizes a bakery by its scent. Good luck restraining a toddler from bolting toward the Mrs. Fields cookie case.

Baby's Nose Knows Mom's Smell

Micah 5

1. But you, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth to me, he who is to be ruler in Israel; and his origin is from ancient time, from days of old:
2. Therefore he will give them up, until the time when she who labors has brought forth; then the remnant of his brothers shall return to the people of Israel:

Rachel Imenu.

Nobody would describe a geometry proof as a stream of consciousness. You know how those things go, one thing after another is logically and irrefutably deduced, step by step, line by line, even though the process may involve bouncing all over the diagram of what needs to be proved.

180 (the idiom for something turned to its opposite):

And it just keeps going (it's the difference between live active yeast and the dead).

The holidays are coming. You’re on a tight schedule. You want everything coming out of your kitchen to be absolutely perfect.

What’s the first thing you need to do? Test your yeast, baking powder, and baking soda for freshness.

https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2015/11/05/test-yeast-baking-powder-baking-soda-freshness/

...he had mentioned the life of Isaac (180 years) because it equaled the sums of the ages of the first three kings of the House of David (David, Solomon, Rehoboam). 70 + 52 + 58 = 180. Therefore...

Beware of dead leaven (doctrines) from the church.

Venahafoch hu:

Yeast Dough Hamantaschen

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

***

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

(Again with the need for the entire chapter, but trying to limited the length of this post, heh, well..)

100 x 60 x 30 = 180,000, but the total given there is 190. 100 + [60 + 30].

190 = keitz (קץ), "end", spelled kuf (100) + tzaddi (90)


Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one [there's Esav again], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Elsewhere:

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The seeds snatched up by the birds are the first ones dispersed, but the texts don't say exactly what happened to them (unlike the ones that fell on the rocks and thorns). They were... taken away.

Obviously an evolution bent here, but you get the idea:

Plants make seeds that can grow into new plants, but if the seeds just fall to the ground under the parent plant, they might not get enough sun, water or nutrients from the soil. Because plants cannot walk around and take their seeds to other places, they have developed other methods to disperse (move) their seeds. The most common methods are wind, water, animals, explosion and fire.

And

Over 70% of plants in our woody forests in New Zealand have fleshy fruit that is eaten by birds. Chemicals in our native birds’ digestive systems help to weaken the tough coats around these seeds. Birds often fly far away from the parent plant and disperse the seeds in their droppings. The kereru, tui and bellbird play an important role in seed dispersal. Trees that produce the largest fruit – miro, puriri, tawa and taraire – rely on the kereru because it has such a large, wide beak to eat the fruit.


https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/103-seed-dispersal

Rabbi Mendel Kessin, in his current series pertaining to the rectification of Esav (America), has pointed out - setting aside the doctrines - that it is simply a fact that Christians are the ones who have dispersed the Torah throughout the nations of the world.

And the sar of Esav is the satan. File that under, "If he knew what he were doing, he wouldn't do that."

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."
He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."
92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.

You'd think people who know better than to trust Christians to discern what's going on in the Torah, would be just as suspicious about what Christians claim is in the New Testament. Everybody has failed logic class, it appears.

And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to fruitfulness. She is Bethlehem, the bakery. Every baby knows his mother's scent (reyach).

But you, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth to me, he who is to be ruler in Israel; and his origin is from ancient time, from days of old:

Works on the literal level of the letters as well.

And then when you throw homophones and related meanings and puns into the mix...

The word "yeast" comes from Old English gist, gyst, and from the Indo-European root yes-, meaning "boil", "foam", or "bubble".[13] Yeast microbes are probably one of the earliest domesticated organisms. Archaeologists digging in Egyptian ruins found early grinding stones and baking chambers for yeast-raised bread, as well as drawings of 4,000-year-old bakeries and breweries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast#History

gist: the substance or essence of a speech or text

root yes: the root of Jesse is yesh... a defacto statement of existence ("there is", "there are")

David/dod: dod = boiler (just toss boiler translate hebrew into a google search). Even better, go for an image search of תיקון דוד (tikkun David). Boiler repair...

This is the best stuff ever in the history of the universe. 12 men have stood on the moon. All Americans. Did they have a view, or what?

180 is when right switches to left and chametz (חמץ) becomes Tzemach (צמח).

Tzemach yitzmach = chametz yichmatz

Matthew 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Isa 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned [chamutz: soured, i.e. pickled red] garments from Bozrah? This one who is glorious in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save:

Was that pottage red because it was red [lentils] from the ground, or was it a pickled (preserved) recipe? The questions that arise..

Genesis 25

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red [pottage]; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

John 12:23-24 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to fruitfulness..

The end (keitz) ends with the final tzaddik..

ץ

Which is the meaning inherent in the name Yehuda (casting the arms into the air in praise).

geometry: the branch of mathematics concerned with the properties and relations of points, lines, surfaces, solids, and higher dimensional analogs.

Euclid

From the Greek name Ευκλειδης (Eukleides), derived from Greek ευ (eu) "good" and κλεος (kleos) "glory" with the patronymic suffix ιδης (ides). This was the name of a 3rd-century BC Greek mathematician from Alexandria who made numerous contributions to geometry.

Speaking of Greek, "70" (LXX) is the word for the "Gentile" (Greek) Torah, but I haven't seen anyone near connecting that one up.

In the 3rd century BC:

"On arrival at Alexandria, the translators were greeted by the king and given a sumptuous banquet. They were then closeted in a secluded house on the island of Pharos close to the seashore, where the celebrated 110 m. high lighthouse, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, had just been finished."

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2016/03/31/A-Brief-History-of-the-Septuagint.aspx

The Pharos of Alexandria was the prototype for all the lighthouses of the world.

Fools rush in
Where wise men never go
But wise men never fall in love
So how are they to know.

There's no going back. Okay, well unless I find a typo.

16 posted on 02/05/2018 11:50:07 AM PST by Ezekiel (All who mourn(ed!) the destruction of America merit the celebration of her rebirth.)
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To: Ezekiel
Wow! That's a lot to take in.

The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how our end will be?"

Jesus said, "Have you then discovered the beginning, so you inquire about the end? For where the beginning is, there shall be the end. --The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, 9-12

What fascinates me there is that the beginning was meteoric infall. Is that also our end?

Your latest post is like a stream of consciousness. Let me hoe through it some more, and I may be back to you.

17 posted on 02/05/2018 12:35:26 PM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug
Your latest post is like a stream of consciousness.

On one level it is, but that's the surface appearance, which is why I thought to bring up the analogy of a geometry proof. Because as the connections string together, line by line...

In a recent shiur, Rav Kessin was keen to point out to a young, liberal-minded member of his audience that there is a big difference between that which is not readily apparent, and that which makes no sense.

The young man, not understanding what the rabbi was explaining, conflated his information with something that "made no sense."

The simple 180 proof that I posted may appear to some to "make no sense."

How about a jigsaw puzzle. If a piece doesn't fit, beating it into place won't do any good, because even if pounded into place, the image won't be the true picture. That piece was supposed to go somewhere else.

Constrast that with putting pieces where they fit. At some point, the sections of blue sky and the sections with the castle and the sections with the red flowers will meet up and connect via those nebulous pieces that initially 'made no sense'.

It's like that.

A lot of people are in a big hurry.

18 posted on 02/05/2018 12:55:26 PM PST by Ezekiel (All who mourn(ed!) the destruction of America merit the celebration of her rebirth.)
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