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Locked on 05/26/2018 9:25:39 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish, personal, and attacks |
Posted on 05/26/2018 7:00:33 AM PDT by tiredofallofit
Well I finally got around to it – I am reading through some of the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin. I say “some” because the complete work spans more than 1500 pages and deals with some of the most weighty and complex theological issues known to mankind. I have chosen for now to plod my way through the most controversial aspects of Calvin’s writings; the topics of predestination and election.
Most of my friends who call themselves Calvinists are eager to disassociate themselves from the doctrine of “double predestination”. They state that God has predestined some to eternal life, but they assure me that He would never send people to hell. People get there on their own, I am told. And what did Calvin teach? I ask. Usually, I receive some sort of vague answer – like how Calvin’s writings are difficult to understand or how misunderstood he is by other denominations. Ok, I get that. He was an intellectual giant – but what did he say about double predestination and if you don’t know exactly, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist?
So I decided to have a look for myself. Surprisingly, The Institutes of the Christian Religion are not so difficult to read or comprehend, despite the complexity of the topics discussed.
Calvin begins his discourse on the doctrine of predestination and election in Chapter 21 of Book 3 of his Institutes. If one just reads the title of this chapter and nothing else, he or she quickly ascertains Calvin’s view on double predestination – for the chapter is titled “OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.” That’s pretty clear, is it not?
But in case you still doubt his position, allow me to share with you this excerpt from Section 5 in Chapter 21:
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
He goes on to address the “arrogant” and “blasphemous” objections which are leveled at his view of predestination. And there are plenty of such objections. In typical Calvin style, he does not back down nor does he attempt to soften his message. God ordains some people to heaven and some people to hell, end of story.
“If that is what Calvin truly taught,” a Calvinist friend told me recently, “then I shouldn’t call myself a Calvinist. That’s not what I believe.”
There is no doubt that Calvin fully subscribed to the doctrine of double predestination. He invented it! Maybe it’s time for some Calvinists to revisit these Institutes of his and reevaluate their desire to affix this label on themselves.
Reference:
Calvin, John. Institutes of Christian religion. Trans. Henry Beveridge, Esq. 1599. Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Nov. 1999. 20 Sept. 2001
God is outside time. He sees all at once whether or not we will choose His will or our own, without causing it. To think God dictates who will choose rebellion because He knows the outcome is to deny His extremely great gift of freedom by which He wants to give us His divinity as much as we the adopted are able to receive it. The situation has been likened to God being the Author of a story in which He writes all the characters and knows what they will do. But the added mystery is that He enters the story Himself as a character, Jesus.
Judging by other articles at the site, Robert Messner appears to be another hypocrite liberal trolling Christianity in order to further his book sales.
God knows that all will fail to be perfect. We know it too. No one ever claims that they are perfect and deserve heaven. They only declare that they are “good” and that God needs to cut them some slack.
It is our nature. I have read the Institutes and am familiar with that section. By knowing that all will fall short and be condemned, God does effectively predestine all to go to hell except for those who he chooses to rescue by predestining that they go to heaven.
I will remain Calvinist. It is the only consistent theology. And if I am wrong, well, I was “good” and God will certainly cut me some slack.
But you know what? If the non-Calvinist is wrong, it doesn’t matter either since God will still predestine that they will go one way or the other upon death. The good news is that another very important doctrine of Calvinism is that a person can only be concerned about this if their heart is regenerated and that means that they were predestined to salvation.
So, when an Arminian is preaching about the evils of Calvinism because he cares about Jesus and the souls of the world, well he can care because God chose for him to care.
The only practical difference between Calvinism and the alternative in the earthly life of a Christian is that the Calvinist understands why it is ok to stop evangelizing to a person who cannot hear.
And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. (Matt 10:14 ESV)
Why would God Predestine some to Heaven, others to Hell, when God gave Adam and Eve “free will” to either obey or disobey His request not to eat the fruit of a given tree?
We all have the opportunity to love God and keep His Commandments. We can be forgiven our sins in Baptism and Confession as God is merciful. God iS love and HE wants us to LOVE Him and our neighbors.
>>God is outside time. He sees all at once whether or not we will choose His will or our own, without causing it. To think God dictates who will choose rebellion because He knows the outcome is to deny His extremely great gift of freedom by which He wants to give us His divinity as much as we the adopted are able to receive it.
That’s a nice workaround, but is neither Calvinst nor non-Calvinist. It is more Buddhist, if you think about it.
Embrace the utter sovereignty of God! He isn’t your buddy. He doesn’t need your worship. You and I add nothing to him. He is the Lord, your God: a being of unimaginable power and knowledge with motives that are as alien to you as your motives are to an ant. If you saw him, you would die. The fact that he stops to choose an unknown percentage of people to know him, desire him, and be drawn to him is the greatest story in the universe.
The Pelagian Heresy, Arminianism, Weslyanism, etc are all just way to make people think that they have the power to “do something” to add to their salvation as a way to convince them to come to church and serve (that was Pelagius’ actual motive. His disciple turned it into a heresy). All non-Calvinist Christianity is literally a way of adding a cliffhanger to this week’s sermon to insure that you show up “next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel”.
>>His request not to eat the fruit of a given tree?
It was not a request. It was an order. That thinking is the beginning of the dismantling of the sovereignty of God.
Then they aren't Calvinists. If God is not sovereign in every event and eventuality in the universe he isn't God. And that isn't an exclusive position of Calvinism. That is a position of theists whether you're a Jew, Christian or Muslim.
Sproul said it best when he asserted "There are no maverick molecules in the universe".
Recently was reading Isaiah 10. The text there speaks of Assyria being the instrument of punishment on a rebellious and idolatrous Israel. Yet it is clear that Assyria is doing what it WANTS to do in attacking Yahweh's chosen people. God is not forcing Assyria to act wickedly...Assyria is doing what Assyrians do.
Likewise when God pronounced judgement on David in 2 Samuel 12 for his sin with Bathsheba--in the ensuing chapters we see the rebellion of his sons Amnon and especially Absalom. Yahweh is letting sin run its course, not violating the wills of either of these bad men.
And so all of us who are saved are done so by grace. In ourselves we are wicked. Only God's mercy can rescue us from our evil ways.
+1
If God absolutely predestines us to heaven or hell, then why bother with church, religion, the bible, anything.
There is nothing you can do about it.
Besides that, everything in the bible is a useless lie. The moral code given by God is useless. If God predestined you to hell, no amount of righteous living will save you.
If God predestined you to heaven, no amount of sin will condemn you.
Pure, true Calvinism is theologically bankrupt. And I don’t know why you would even argue that, because it won’t matter.
Comforting, that.
I’m not a Calvinist, but I did like Calvin and Hobbs, and I have often wondered about this.
If God is omniscient then he, by definition, knows everything. By extension that means he knows what we are all thinking and what decisions we will make in our lives. So whether he predetermines or not, he knows. If someone, i.e. God, knows what is going to happen with complete certainty isn’t that pretty close to our lives being predetermined?
God hated Esau, even before he was born.
The idea of predestination flies in the face of the scriptures, in context. It also flies in the face of a righteous, holy, merciful God. It smacks of arbitrariness.
God’s promises to salvation/forgiveness/new birth are given and stated without reservation or limitation and are rock-solid promises that a Holy and Righteous God must and does answer.
Yes. It was a command and Adam and Eve and the rest of mankind suffered the consequences for that decision to eat the fruit.
The point was that God allows us to make the decision whether to Love God and follow His commandments.
Why do some follow a man-made religion instead of being part of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?
God Wills that all come to Him.
He knows they all will not.
Jesus did not come to save people already destined to be saved.
Calvin is an idiot.
Gods “hatred” of Esau wasn’t an emotion as we know it.
It was in reference to Gods choosing one over the other.
Esau was the father of the Edomites
Jacob the father of Israel
He chose the nation of Israel, to fulfill his mission. Thus he loved Jacob
In contrast, Edom was not chosen.
And yet God still blessed Edom.
No. While God knows all things, He does not make our decisions. We make our own choices.
He allows us to make our own choices. We can chose to be members of the Church that Jesus founded, or follow a man made religion like Calvin. Jesus warned us about false teachers and He was the Truth that we should follow.
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