At the name of Jesus

OSV.com ^ | 06-10-18 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Petrosius]

Read it in Greek.

καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐνεφύσησεν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς, Λάβετε πνεῦμα ἅγιον: ἄν τινων ἀφῆτε τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἀφέωνται αὐτοῖς, ἄν τινων κρατῆτε κεκράτηνται.

[ealgeone]

Sure makes a difference doesn’t it?

[ealgeone]

Got your popcorn cooking?

[ealgeone]

You’re supposed to put the English translation if you post a different language.

Now explain the significance of the Greek.

[metmom]

God promises forgiveness on confession and does not require a priest to do so.

In the Lord’s prayer, the prayer is to the Father and is asking HIM for forgiveness.

[metmom]

The Holy Spirit indwells every believer whether they sin or not.

He’s not here today, gone tomorrow based on our ability to not sin.

And while He can be quenched or grieved, He does not leave us.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Please post the english translation, including the specific tenses of the verbs.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

What’s the point of harassing Catholics and being an anti Catholic troll?

This is an open thread. It is for conversation.

[ealgeone]

God expects us to pray for one another. We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.

Yes....we pray FOR, not TO, one another. There is no biblical injunction to pray TO another created person or object.

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In a dream, God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him: “For [Abraham] is a prophet and he will pray for you, so you shall live” (Gen. 20:7). When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).

Notice the clear teaching of praying FOR someone on earth...not TO someone on earth.

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Paul wrote to the Romans: “I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).

Notice the clear teaching that the prayers of the believers in Rome are to be directed to God....not a created person.

Notice also Paul is writing to believers in Rome who are on earth.

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James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another.

*****************8

Again, notice the clear Biblical teaching. Believers confess sins to one another....not a priest.

Believers pray for one another. James is writing to believers who are alive on earth.

This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.

This part I cannot believe you, as a Roman Catholic priest, actually wrote as it contradicts your denomination's position on Mary as co-mediatix.

But you are correct on this...Christ is the believers ONE mediator with God. Mary is not.

******************

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Rev. 8:3–4) (Saints includes those living on earth and those living in Heaven.)

Your presumption these are saints both on earth and in Heaven is not supported by the context of Revelation.

Honestly, what kind of hermeneutics training, if any, do Roman Catholic priests receive?

[ealgeone]

What’s the point of harassing Catholics and being an anti Catholic troll? Tk show everyone how superior your spirituality is?

You're allowed to play with others now?? I see you still haven't learned how to though.

And what have you brought to any of these discussions other than to hurl accusations and resort to your usual name calling?

Nothing.

[metmom]

And Catholics conflate mediation with intercession.

1 Timothy 2:5-7 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle ( I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

There is ONE mediator, as Scripture tells us.

There are many intercessors.

By claiming that there are many mediators, they are claiming Scripture is wrong and thus, by extension, the Holy Spirit who inspired it.

They are found fighting God, not us, but they'd rather shoot the messenger.

[ealgeone]

Roman Catholics conflate a lot of things!

[metmom]

Believers do not have the legal authority, or any authority to mediate between God and man.

Only Jesus has that authority and right as it was HIS blood and death that purchased the pardon for our sins.

We can tell others that if they come to Jesus, HE will for give their sins, but we cannot forgive the sins of others as we don’t have the authority nor right to. No matter what a person claims.

There are no examples of the apostles or any other church leaders absolving sins in the NT, nor are there any instructions on how to do it for others.

[boatbums]

What’s the point of harassing Catholics and being an anti Catholic troll? Tk show everyone how superior your spirituality is?

What’s the point of harassing non-Catholics and being an anti Protestant troll? To show everyone how superior your spirituality is?

[ealgeone]

I’ve yet to see anything superior from the poster in question.

[daniel1212]

Faith is not based on proof.

Bible faith is not blind faith, despite what atheists and secular dictionaries insist, but it is based on a degree of evidential warrant.

You either believe or you do not believe in the traditional preaching of Jesus Christ, His apostles and successors and His Catholic Church.

Indeed you either believe or you do not believe, but the issue is the basis for either. We are to believe in the traditional preaching of Jesus Christ, His apostles and successors based upon the the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels). which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.

In which Catholic distinctives are NOT manifest, and thus we are not to believe them if wee would be faithful NT believers.

Some of the traditional teachings of Jesus were written in the Bible and some were preached.

There is far more to Divine revelation than just the gospels, while we have assurance that we have the actual wholly inspired word of God by its preservation in Scripture, God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19, 30-31) Psalm 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

And thus as abundantly evidenced , as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. Thus the veracity of oral preaching subject to testing by Scripture, and not vice versa.

In contrast to this is assurance based upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults), for Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

That is the basis for your assurance that something as spurious as the Assumption is dogma.Yet men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God, and thereby also provide new public revelation, neither of which Rome claims to do, thus her oral tradition cannot be equal to Scripture, much less effectively make the church magisterium to perpetually be the supreme transcendent authority over both.

However, in trying to support their supreme authority, RCs basically argue that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority.

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God. Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?

Perhaps you should reread the post that specially identified praying to saints in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. There are living saints in Heaven and on earth as part of the Body of Christ - His Holy Church. Reread Revelations where the saints and angels present nuggets of incense (our prayers)as they set them on fire before the Throne of God.

I myself have not seen that post, but you evidently have not seen the refutation of these egregious extrapolations.

In brief, nowhere in Scripture do we see any believers engaging in prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) , or instructed to do so, despite the Spirit inspiring the recording of over 200 prayers , and of this being a most basic practice, and despite there always being plenty of created beings to pray to, and occasions for it since the Fall, yet the only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in the spiritual world is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven see therein.

Failing to find even one example of PTCBIH, and with instruction on who to address in prayer to Heaven only being that of to the Lord, thus you must resort to eisegetical extrapolation, presuming those in Heaven can not only hear/understand all prayers from earth, mental or oral (which only God is shown able to do), but that we are to address them, though again the Holy Spirit never mentions even one example of doing so.

Meanwhile, from what I recall, any two-way communication btwn created beings in Heaven and earth required both to somehow be present in the same location, and was not that of asking them to intercede to God for them, and was very rare.

Note that elders and angels offering prayers (Rv. 5:8; 8:4,5) in memorial - like as in Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15; 16:9, "an offering of memorial" cf. Num. 16:9, - is not that of them being addressed in prayer, nor does it indicate that they had heard them previously, nor is it described as being a regular postal service, but it is one of the things which is a preclude to the final judgments upon the earth, testifying to the persecutions of the saints by the devil and world that it fit to be punished.

For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15

I realize that many do not accept or believe all of the teachings of Jesus Christ or His oral sacred tradition and have separated from Christ’s ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Shouting it my make you feel better, but it is a poor substitute for actual substantiation from Scripture, in context. However, Catholic theology even holds that one cannot even discover the contents of the Bible apart from faith in her, and thus they place conversion as necessary before belief in the Bible. Which is another arrogant fallacious argument.

For example, many do not accept or believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, even though clearly stated in the Bible in several passages. May you find God’s Truth.

That water was the blood of men and that men were bread for the elect is also clearly stated in the Bible, while NOWHERE are believers in the NT church shown looking to a separate class of celibate (with rare exceptions) believers (priests ) whose primary unique function is that of offering the Eucharist as a sacrifice for sins, and dispensing it to the people as the being the food that makes us live for ever in Jesus Christ.

Nor that Eucharist was the the true and proper and lifegiving flesh and blood of Jesus Christ our Lord,” being corporeally present whole and entire in His physical "reality.” (Mysterium Fidei, Encyclical of Pope Paul VI, 1965) under the appearance of non-existent bread and wine, down to the smallest particle, until the non-existent species manifests decay.

Which theology is rather extensively dealt with here , by the grace of God.

Your faith is not to be based upon the claims of the RCC and her unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, but upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, which is how the NT church began.

[daniel1212]

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/MarySC.html#ascriptions

That is basically taught by such RC "saints" as seen here .

According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173

Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, "because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;" and "there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately yield to the power of the name of Mary." — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html

[daniel1212]

It’s called respect. Do you respect your elders?

And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. (Acts 10:25-26)

There is a world of difference btwn reverential respect and what one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining, kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation can constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Caths should only do (and I should do more of) what Mary and every believer in Scripture did in praying to Heaven, which was to pray directly to the Lord, not saintly secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

Instead, Caths basically say,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Honestly, what kind of hermeneutics training, if any, do Roman Catholic priests receive?

Almost nothing.

Almost no courses in Bible.

It is sad.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

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