At the name of Jesus

OSV.com ^ | 06-10-18 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Petrosius]

This is where your method led you.

Reading Paul and following his train of thought as he presents it. Such an unreasonable method. If latter in Galatians Paul expands on his thoughts, I will follow that too. For the moment, however, let Paul in Galatians 2 speak for himself. I am not the one who is trying to force his ideas onto Paul.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Carry on friend!

[Petrosius]

Chapter 3
1 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? 3 Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4 Did you experience so many things in vain?—if indeed it was in vain. 5 Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard? 6 Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, “Through you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith. 10 For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.” 11 And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.” 12 But the law does not depend on faith; rather, “the one who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Paul reminds the Galatians that they have received the Spirit from faith, not from the works of the law. An important question here is what does Paul mean by "works of the law," and the "law?" I maintain that he his continuing his argument from Chapter 2, and thus these mean circumcision and the Mosaic Law but I would hear your thoughts on the question.

[daniel1212]

This canard again. "Priest" is the English rendering of the Greek πρεσβύτερος. Old English, like Greek and Latin, had two different words priest, which was only used to translate πρεσβύτερος, and sacerd, which was used to translated ἱερεύς. That modern English translates both as "priest" is unfortunate, but its usage for the NT πρεσβύτερος and its continuing office today is still valid.

It is unfortunate, for the main issue is that “hiereus” and “archiereus" ("priest" and "high priest" as in Heb. 4:15; 10:11) are the Greek words which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for a separate sacerdotal (sacrificing) class in the New Testament (over 280 times total*, mainly as archiereus”) that of Old Testament "priests" (Hebrew ko^he^n) as well as those of pagans and the general priesthood of all NT believers. But which words He never uses for New Testament pastors ("poime¯n"), which are called presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer), which as shown above, refers to those in one pastoral office. (Titus 1:5,7; Acts 20:17,28.

The English word "priest" is a etymological corruption of the Greek presbuteros, being referred to in Old English (around 700 to 1000 AD) as "preostas" or "preost," and finally resulting in the modern English "priest." But which is also used for Old Testament ko^he^n, an by rendering both hiereus and presbuteros as "priest" then the distinction is lost that the Holy Spirit provided by never using the distinctive term of hiereus for NT presbuteros, or describing as them as a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers.

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But nowhere are NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distinctive class titled "hiereus" was a later development.

As was making presbuteros and episkopos into two offices, of two persons.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

thanks daniel!

I knew I’d seen some of your posts in the past.

Made more sense to ask you than to create the response myself.

[daniel1212]

Paul reminds the Galatians that they have received the Spirit from faith, not from the works of the law. An important question here is what does Paul mean by "works of the law," and the "law?" I maintain that he his continuing his argument from Chapter 2, and thus these mean circumcision and the Mosaic Law but I would hear your thoughts on the question.

Getting late here (been up since 4:30AM) but broadly salvation is "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (Titus 3:5)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Paul did not forget to specify the Law in such places, and I see that his use of the Law represents all systems of salvation by actual merit of full obedience, of actually becoming good enough to be with God as in Catholicism (even if "by grace"), "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21)

One is "accepted in the Beloved" and made to sit together with Him in Heaven, and will go to forever be with the Lord sat death or His coming, on His account.

Yet God rewards faith/obedience in grace. Too tired to write more.

[blackpacific]

“And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them. And they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them that saw them.” Douay Rheims

This is what I am talking about:

“Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.”

And

“He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

[blackpacific]

I should have said it is called “The Mystery of Faith”, as it is the only mystery we believe where our senses are telling us something different than our intellect and will assent to with holy Faith in God’s Word.

The mysteries we believe are not a “cop out” as you put it. They are beyond the grasp of human reason. If you modify the mystery to make it within the grasp of reason, applying rationalist principles, you have changed the concept entirely. This gives rise to many different forms of sectarian christianity, each more “reasonable” than the next one.

What Jesus Christ asks us to assent to is quite small and easy. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. But human pride makes a big deal about the items that require some humility.

*************
It is called the “Mystery of Faith” because all of our senses tell us it is bread, except our ears, which are docile to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Catholics call everything they can’t understand that’s logically inconsistent and downright contradictory a *mystery*.

It’s just an out.

God is not illogical nor contradictory and God will not violate His own laws.

[ealgeone]

Two different events that you're attempting to draw together.

Keep trying.

[imardmd1]

It’s called respect. Do you respect your elders?

Bobbing one's head as a habitual reflex at the mention of the Savior is called superstition, a token response seen even in demons. Pious Jews do this constantly whilst reading aloud the Scriptures or repetitiously uttering "prayers.". That ceaseless bobbing is called 'davening.'

What an elder desires to see (and I am one) is an instant, willing, compliant deference to the authority of God's Word and the teaching of it as delegated by God to His spiritually mature servants, not merely lip-service as a way of sliding past personal accountability for vulgar language, actions, and passive defiance to God's commands in one's own lifestyle.

"Wherefore the Lord said,

Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid"

(Isa 29:13,14 AV; cf Mt. 15:7-9, Mk. 7:5-9)

"Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth,
and honoureth me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' "

(Mt. 15:7-9 AV)

"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him,

Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

He answered and said unto them,

Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written,

'This people honoureth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them,

Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. "

(Mk. 7:5-9 AV; my bolding and underlining for emphasis)

Even Peter spoke to this, in the same way giving counsel to church presbuteroi:

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly;
not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another,
and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you" (1 Pet. 51:1-7 AV).

No counsel for head-bobbing, fake external ritualistic "worshipful" motions, but those of the heart, humble toward men, meek toward The God, ready to perceive, hearken, and obey.

Be a true disciple, as those through whom Jesus planted the Holy Seed, not just a bobble-head.

[imardmd1]

The mysteries we believe are not a “cop out” as you put it. They are beyond the grasp of human reason.

The twelve "mysteries" of the Old Testament are revealed in the New Testament by the Holy Spirit through the holy writers there, and available as "strong meat" to every regenerated disciple progressively maturing in The Faith. They are yet hidden to the unregenerated soulish professor who claims to understand the deep things of the Spirit of God, but does not. Nor can he receive them, for they are discerned spiritually, not philosophically.

But the chief mystery is the one proclaimed by Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth to Nicodemus, a Master of the Sanhedrin of the Jews:

Ye must be born again!

[imardmd1]

It’s called respect. Do you respect your elders?

Bobbing one's head as a habitual reflex at the mention of the Savior is called superstition, a token response seen even in demons. Pious Jews do this constantly whilst reading aloud the Scriptures. It is called 'davening.'

What an elder desires (and I am one) is instant, willing deference to the authority of God's Word and the teaching of it as delegated by God to His spiritually mature servants, not merely lip-service as a way of sliding past personal accountability for vulgar language, actions, and passive defiance to God's commands in one's own lifestyle.

"Wherefore the Lord said,

Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid"

(Isa 29:13,14 AV; cf Mt. 15:7-9, Mk. 7:5-9)

"Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth,
and honoureth me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' "

(Mt. 15:7-9 AV)

"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him,

Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

He answered and said unto them,

Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written,

'This people honoureth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them,

Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. "

(Mk. 7:5-9 AV; my bolding and underlining for emphasis)

[imardmd1]

Sorry, Post #212 was a mis-post, an inattentive action.

[MHGinTN]

Do you serve Mary? Do you read your beads with dedication? Do you seek the mediatrix assistance of the Catholic Mary? ... You are way beyond mere respect, you are worshipping another ‘deity’ for you have deified a mortal outside of what GOD has directed.

[ealgeone]

If anyone is wearing the Scapular or the Miraculous Medal they have abandoned the true Gospel and have gone after a false Gospel.

[Petrosius]

But nowhere are NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distinctive class titled "hiereus" was a later development.

But when "priest" is used in the context of a Catholic priest, this is not as ἱερεύς, but as πρεσβύτερος, which is the original meaning of the word. But this whole issue is in response to aMorePerfectUnion's claim: "Nor does the passage support the idea that a "priest" (not a NT church office) can forgive sins, given that no priest was there - in fact no Christian "priest" is found in the NT." Since there was the office of πρεσβύτερος in the NT, and that Catholic priesthood is a is a continuation of that office, and that the use of the word "priest" in the context of the Catholic priesthood is a continuation of its original meaning as πρεσβύτερος, then his claim is false.

[Petrosius]

Should have included you in post #216

[Petrosius]

Paul did not forget to specify the Law in such places, and I see that his use of the Law represents all systems of salvation by actual merit of full obedience, of actually becoming good enough to be with God as in Catholicism (even if "by grace"), "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21)

What is in question is how Paul is using "works of the law" and the "law" in Galatians. Up to what I have covered now, (Chapter 3) it is clearly circumcision and the Mosaic Law as he argues against the Judaizers. If Paul also means God's moral law, then show it by what Paul actually says, not by assuming a preconceived conclusion.

As for "becoming good enough to be with God as in Catholicism," this show a marked misunderstanding of Catholic theology. We do not earn God's grace by our own merit or "becoming good enough." It is a pure unmerited gift, first received in baptism and, if necessary, restored in confession; in both cases before we are "good enough."

Nor do are we obliged to live according to God's moral law in order to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift, but one that can be lost if we continue to live according to the flesh. As we continue in Galatians, I will point this out. But I will wait and give aMorePerfectUnion an opportunity to comment on what Paul has been meaning about "works of the law" and "works" up until this point in his letter.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

What is in question is how Paul is using "works of the law" and the "law" in Galatians.

Rather, what the God reveals through all Paul's writings and the rest of Scripture.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Salvation is a gift, but one that can be lost if we continue to live according to the flesh.

Sorry you do not have salvation and assurance of salvation.

I do and it's wonderful! And you *could* too.

"To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Jude 24, 25