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To: Luircin

Your comment: “I’ve read the Catholic catechism, especially on justification. I’m simply much less accepting of what it claims than you are, and far snarkier about what contradicts Scripture.”

Then show me where the Catholic Church requires works for salvation and differs from the Bible?

The Council of Trent states: “And we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

We accept our faith in God at Baptism, and need to grow spiritually through our “goods works” of mercy (as jesus showed us) that helps us follow God’s will and grow closer to Christ.

As I said earlier, St Paul ‘s works refers to the works for Mosaic law. Even Jesus indicated to the Apostles not to follow the example of the Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites”.

Paul is probably using “works” and “boasting” here as he does in Romans, of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law. He says we are not saved in that manner, but by faith—meaning faith in Christ—so no one, either Jew or Gentile, can boast of having a more privileged position with God. We are all saved on the same basis—through faith in Christ and union in his body, the Church.

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). The sense of what Paul is saying is: “God has raised up both of us—Jews and Gentiles—to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law—so neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. Instead, we Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works—the kind of works we should be concerned about—for God intended ahead of time for us to do them” (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6–10).

No, I have not read the Lutheran Confession. I disagree with Luther’s basic principles of Faith alone and Scripture alone. I am sure that most Lutherans are good moral people, but following an errant understanding of the teachings of Jesus and His Church. I hope that we all reach Heaven with God, but the path is narrow and difficult and based on my observations on how our world works, many will not make it.


40 posted on 07/14/2018 1:09:38 PM PDT by ADSUM
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To: ADSUM

The Ephesians weren’t Jews; why on earth would Paul warn them against Jewish taboos if they weren’t Jews? And why wouldn’t he say ‘works of the Law’ instead of just ‘works’?

And why would Paul call it salvation by GRACE, when grace is defined as undeserved kindness?

And for THAT matter, if you DID have to do works to earn salvation why wouldn’t he have just SAID so? The fact that he didn’t tells me everything I need to know.

I prefer the interpretation that doesn’t make Paul look like a liar by both commission and omission, thanks.

Speaking of, in Galatians, Paul specifically says, “21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if A law (emphasis mine) had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.”

IE: there is NO law that can give righteousness, which runs counter to what Rome claims.

Finally this: If you didn’t read the Lutheran Confessions, why A: are you assuming so much about what we believe, and B: insist that I go and read your Catechism? That’s kinda hypocritical, isn’t it?


42 posted on 07/14/2018 1:27:10 PM PDT by Luircin
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