Posted on 07/21/2018 7:47:03 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
You garhered correctly. Taqiyya should play a part in your discernment. No?
Firstly - this was an injunction for Shia to mimic Sunnis, not about crypto-Muslims
Secondly, for a Moslem to call Jesus as God and to take communion is beyond taqqiyya.
So there’s nothing to worry about?
We really mistake the idea of crypto-Muslims. Even the ones suspected of this in the first generation after the spanish conquest of Grenada was overblown as for a Muslim, the act of shirk i.e. acknowledging anything other than the strict monad of al-Illah is a shibboleth for them.
This guy is a real convert.
We must agree to disagree. “ acknowledging anything other than the strict monad of al-Illah is a shibboleth for them”.
Unless their lying about.
RE: Taqiyya should play a part in your discernment. No?
Of course, the question I have is this — what GUIDELINES does the church or the Bible provide that helps us to discern between a lying Muslim “convert” and a real Muslim convert.
After all, Christians have to help and support the real convert and not reject him.
“what GUIDELINES does the church or the Bible provide that helps us to discern between a lying Muslim “convert” and a real Muslim convert”.
I Don’t know. Please educate me.
I think Post #22 above helps.
“Firstly - this was an injunction for Shia to mimic Sunnis, not about crypto-Muslims.”
I had no idea taqiyya was something only muslims used against other muslims and no one else.
Crypto-Islam is the secret adherence to Islam while publicly professing to be of another faith; people who practice crypto-Islam are referred to as “crypto-Muslims”. Wiki
“Secondly, for a Moslem to call Jesus as God and to take communion is beyond taqqiyya.”
Limiting their lies seems counterproductive. The source who said it may be lying.
These are weak guidelines.
I think the main guideline is this “BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM” (Matthew 7:16)
Let’s take case of Yousef, the son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef.
He helped the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) thwart attacks from 1997 to 2007. He later went on to write an autobiography published in 2010 titled Son of Hamas.
He converted to Christianity and fled to the US where he was granted political asylum.
Every indicator in his life tells us that he braved being ostracized by everyone in his family as well as being killed for apostasy.
It is hard to deny his conversion to Jesus Christ based on these observations.
It is wise to be cautious, but there comes a point in time when you also have to exercise some faith when you DO see a changed life. Otherwise, we will be living lives of extreme skepticism and Christians would not even accept men like St. Paul himself.
“I think the main guideline is this “BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM” (Matthew 7:16)”
Their muslim fruit should be enough to know them.
As for Yousef..
“He helped the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) thwart attacks from 1997 to 2007. He later went on to write an autobiography published in 2010 titled Son of Hamas.”
Ten years and never caught. lucky man. Why did he stop?
“He converted to Christianity and fled to the US where he was granted political asylum.”
Crypto muslim? I don’t know. For all we know, his book could be mostly lies. Doesn”t matter, he’s here now.
“Every indicator in his life tells us that he braved being ostracized by everyone in his family as well as being killed for apostasy.”
But he wasn’t killed. Converted to Christianity and still made it out alive. Not to mention being well known and recognizable. If true, that was truly a miracle.
“It is hard to deny his conversion to Jesus Christ based on these observations.”
But not impossible.
SeekAndFind, you are a credit to debating. No name calling or condescension. Hat tip to you.
I think the guideline of knowing them by their fruits still applies.
I just cited one example... if after over a decade the man has shown relative CONSISTENCY, there is good basis for accepting him as a brother in Christ.
Otherwise, we Christians will find ourselves using Taqiya as an excuse never to evangelize Muslims and leave them to their eternal fate... which is of course NOT in keeping with the intent of the Great Commission.
*I think the guideline of knowing them by their fruits still applies.”
I never said it didn’t.
“I just cited one example... if after over a decade the man has shown relative CONSISTENCY, there is good basis for accepting him as a brother in Christ.”
One of billions. I hope you’re right.
“Otherwise, we Christians will find ourselves using Taqiya as an excuse never to evangelize Muslims and leave them to their eternal fate... which is of course NOT in keeping with the intent of the Great Commission.”
Taqiyya is not an excuse, it’s a reason. I’m not saying not to evangelize to them. I’m saying never totally trust them. Their intent is in their quran. The one you evangelize to today may wind up blowing you up in a month, year, or decade.
I would suggest reading "No God but one" by Nabeel Qureishi, "The truth about Muhammad" by Robert Spencer and "Did Muhammad exist" by Robert Spencer
That's why I suggest reading about it first
I never said "against no one else" note -- and to be specific "taqiya is about lying about your faith" and was specifically used by Shia under Sunni oppression.
It gives NO license for a Moslem to have shirk i.e. worshipping something other than Al-illah.
If a Moslem takes communion, they are irredeemably condemned to death for apostasy.
Crypto-Islam is the secret adherence to Islam while publicly professing to be of another faith; people who practice crypto-Islam are referred to as “crypto-Muslims”. Wiki - and that was exceedingly rare and only in Iberian spain for a few years after the Spanish reconquista. It was short as the cryptos were easy to find out - they didn't participate in Church life which made them easy to point out -- this was not simple "Oh, i'm Christian now" but asking them to worship what was to them "just a prophet"
Limiting their lies seems counterproductive. The source who said it may be lying. - this is not about just lying, just words -- the ACTIONS they do can mean apostasy. Taqqiya is about the verbal lying. It does not absolve a Moslem who takes communion say as that is participation in worshipping someone other than al-illah.
#2 Consistency - come on, 10+ years is not enough for you?
#3 Furthermore, can you name one, even one crypto-Moslem who did what you say
you can trust converts - the moment they acknowledge Jesus as God is the moment they are irredeemable apostates from Islam.
Seriously dude, read the Quran and Hadiths and you'll see what you are saying is impossible. Lying (words) is one thing but actions that are haram is another.
“#1 They are about 1.2 billion in number, not “billions”
As of 2015, there numbers were 1.8 billion (Pew research). I’m sure their numbers have surpassed 2 billion by now.
“#2 Consistency - come on, 10+ years is not enough for you?”
No. 10 years isn’t enough. A lifetime is.
“#3 Furthermore, can you name one, even one crypto-Moslem who did what you say”
You brought it up. I figured you knew what you were talking about. Its a deceiving practice, I doubt any will openly admit to it... yet.
“you can trust converts - the moment they acknowledge Jesus as God is the moment they are irredeemable apostates from Islam.”
Sounds like they just gave up ways to be found out. Or, it’s just another lie and they have managed to fool you.
RE: Taqiyya is not an excuse, it’s a reason. I’m not saying not to evangelize to them. I’m saying never totally trust them. Their intent is in their quran. The one you evangelize to today may wind up blowing you up in a month, year, or decade.
___________________________________
OK, I used the word “excuse”, you use the word “reason”, same thing.
Can you explain to me what you mean by — “Not to totally trust them”. Why not use Taqiya as a REASON (using your word ) not to evangelize any Muslim?
If they can never be totally trusted, what’s the point of trying to evangelize them?
If you’re not going to accept them in the body of Christ and disciple them because they “might” (emphasis) at some point blow you up, then why bother?
“OK, I used the word “excuse”, you use the word “reason”, same thing.”
No, they are not the same. In the context of your response, you made it seem trivial (Taqiyya) and wrong to make a judgement call on something they TEACH. To me it’s not trivial, its reality.
“Can you explain to me what you mean by — “Not to totally trust them”. Why not use Taqiya as a REASON (using your word ) not to evangelize any Muslim?”
Thank you for using the more appropriate word, “reason”.
“Not totally trust them.” Are you really asking that question?
Lets replace my atatement with “be cautious for obvious reasons.”
“If you’re not going to accept them in the body of Christ and disciple them because they “might” (emphasis) at some point blow you up, then why bother?”
Because its a risk you have to take to teach the word of Christ to people who want your infidel life to cease and desist. Jesus does not say to preach only to these or those, but to everybody. All i’m saying is watch your back, throat and head.
Well, let’s put it this way... many a missionary have risked their lives preaching the gospel.
This included all the apostles, most of whom died horrible deaths in emulation of their master. RISK is INHERENT in obeying the great commission, not only to the Muslim world, but in many other cultures.
Should we exercise caution against fake converts? Of course. This holds true even for non-Muslims. But we should not live our Christian lives in extreme skepticism, not if an ex-Muslim has for many years, risked rejection from family, community and braved the danger of being killed because of his apostasy.
So here is where we differ... correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to advocate TOTAL SKEPTICISM against ALL Muslim conversion claims. I don’t, not if their FRUITS show that their claims to believing in Jesus matches their actions... especially if Time has consistently shown that acceptance is justified.
Let me end this particular post by asking you a question because I am still unclear about your stance — is it your stance that because Taqiya is a Muslim teaching, that in order to protect the Christian’s life, we abandon all attempts at evangelizing Mudlims altogether?
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