Cath. Priests to be Forced to Report Abuse Revealed in Confession Under Victorian Opposition Plan

MSN ^ | 8/14/18 | Richard Willingham

[Mrs. Don-o]

You’re so welcome. Glad to help.

[Elsie]

Your post consistently distorts Catholic doctrine and fails to make essential distinctions.

Ya know; the Mormons; that used to post here; made the same kind of claim.

I offer YOU the chance to show the world just WHAT I've 'distorted': the same as I did the Mormons.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Admitting that "Mormons that used to post here made the same kind of claim [that you distorted their doctrine]" suggests the phrase "Hmm... Equal Opportunity Distorter?"

But at the same time, you did graciously offer me a change to explain, and I can't ignore an opening like that! So

Thanks and a tip o' the hat!

Here goes!

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[Catholic Church] claims itself to uniquely be "the Church"

Yes, indeed! This is true! But to do it justice, you need to define what's meant by Church.

Catholics believe that Baptism is the ordinary and usual way to enter the Catholic Church, and thus teaches that every baptized Christian is, in the sacramental sense, Catholic, no matter what their so-called 'denomination'.

It would be interesting for you, I think, to read what the Catholic Catechism says about Baptism. It's very rich, and here for your convenience is a link. In addition to reading the first bit (it's in numbered paragraphs) you might want to take special note of the following:

1249 Catechumens "are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity." "With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own."

That means that these un-baptized persons (catechumens preparing to enter the Church) are already considered part of the Church by what we call Baptism of Desire. If they desire/intend to obey His command and unite themselves with Him, He can see their hearts and see they have already, moved by the Spirit, said Yes to Him in their hearts.

1256 ... In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. ...

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60...God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

That last phrase means that God has told us no other way to enter the Church (other than Baptism) but we know that some unbaptized are saved (e.g. 'Dismas,' the 'other guy' crucified next to Jesus.) So we say we are 'bound' to be baptized, but God is not 'bound' by anything at all. He can save whomever He pleases, by whatever means He pleases. Yet He did say to us, "Be baptized."

`

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I think I'll have to answer the rest of your "Mormons & Catholics" points one by one. I want to give you time to look up those links!

BTW, the LDS Church is one of the *few* groups whose baptism Catholics do *not* consider valid. This is because though they use the "Trinitarian formula," they actually do not believe in One, Trinitarian God. So their words are the same but not (quite) their intent. Same goes, I think, for JW's and a few outliers.

[Elsie]

Thanks for the info on baptism; even though it wasn't mentioned in what I posted.

We'll be awaiting the REST of the distortions as you have time to post them.

[Mrs. Don-o]

???

But look. Your very first point at #237 was exactly on this subject, namely that Catholicism claims to be uniquely, "The Church". And that can only be answered directly by defining who is in the Church, and why; and that is: all Christians, by reason of Baptism.

That is not remotely how the Mormons would define it, since they say that only Mormons are true members of the Church, and do not acknowledge any other Christians to be members of the Church.

In contrast, the Catholic Church teaches an inclusive definition, since we say Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of God in Christ, Calvinists, House-churchers and Non-Denoms and Church of Zambia and anybody else including my baptized Baptist husband, who believes in the Trinity as we do, and Baptizes in water--- including people who don't affiliate with any structure of organization at all ---- are still truly Christians and members of this one Church, the Church which He founded. This differentiates Catholic doctrine from the Mormon POV, and also excludes any interpretation of a uniqueness based on denomination. So that refutes your point.

You do get that, don't you?

Don't you?

[Elsie]

In contrast, the Catholic Church teaches an inclusive definition, since we say Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of God in Christ, Calvinists, House-churchers and Non-Denoms and Church of Zambia and anybody else including my baptized Baptist husband, who believes in the Trinity as we do, and Baptizes in water--- including people who don't affiliate with any structure of organization at all ---- are still truly Christians and members of this one Church, the Church which He founded.

Nice try; but you'll need to post something OFFICIAL from Rome that nullifies this:

"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."

--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

[Elsie]

You do get that, don't you?

Nope; for I have no clue as to what Rome defines as 'church of the faithful'.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "[The Catholic Church] [a] claims a unique and authoritative priesthood [b] thereby denying the royal priesthood of all believers"

I added 'a' and 'b' to yours for clarity. The answer is [a] Yes and [b] No.

The Catholic Church teaches there is a 'ministerial' or 'hierarchical' priesthood, a.k.a. according to the order of Melchizedek, which was prophesied in the Bible (Genesis 14; Psalm 110) and which is conformed to Christ in his singular role (Hebrews 5,6,7). There is also a 'common' priesthood, which is common to all the faithful as a royal, priestly people. The first is unique and distinct, and [here's the really interesting part] does not deny the second. They both partake of the Priesthood of Christ.

Here's your Catechism LINK

1546 Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father." The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood."

1547 The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests,... is at the service of the common priesthood,... a means by which Christ unceasingly builds up and leads his Church. For this reason it is transmitted by its own sacrament, the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Note that the common priesthood is transmitted by Baptism to all the faithful; the ministerial priesthood (receiving priesthood via Holy Orders) --- exists not to 'deny' the common royal priesthood as you said, but to serve it.

On the one hand, we have all the Baptized as a wholesharing in Jesus' dignity as King, Priest and Prophet; on the other hand we have particular men who have particular roles, which all work together.

The idea of people being set apart for particular roles, is preached Paul who tells the Corinthians that people with particular roles are placed there by God:

1 Corinthians 12:28-30

"And God has placed in the church

• first of all apostles,
• second prophets, third teachers,
• then miracles,
• then gifts of healing,
• of helping,
• of administration,
• and of different kinds of tongues.

  Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? "

Just as in Paul's essential teaching about our key reality, the Body of Christ, the particular roles are not identical to each other, they all have different gifts, but they all work together.

That should help us understand how particular, hierarchical priests, who act in persona Christi serve the royal priesthood of the faithful.

So this notion that Catholics see the ministerial priesthood as denying the royal priesthood of the faithful, is just flat-out Biblically and factually wrong.

[Elsie]

The only ‘priests’ that are found in the NT are the Jewish ones.

Why does Rome have them again?

[Mrs. Don-o]

"The only ‘priests’ that are found in the NT are the Jewish ones."

You forgot Jesus our high priest.

Or I could say, "That's right, Elsie, because Jesus is a Jew."

But this is not the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood. This is the priesthood of Jesus according to the order of Melchizedek, which was prophesied in the Bible (Genesis 14; Psalm 110) and which is conformed to Christ in his singular role (Hebrews 5,6,7).

"Why does Rome have them again?"

So, did you look up Hebrews?

A priest, per definition, offers sacrifice. Jesus was and is our Priest at the Last Supper, and at Calvary, offering not the blood of bullocks, but Himself.

Jesus said to "do this in memory of Me," so to "do this" we need a priest who is in Him, in persona Christi, to re-present --- make present again --- this same pure and perfect Sacrifice. This fulfills the prophecy of Malachi:

Malachi 1:11
My name will be great among the nations (lit: Gentiles), from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty.

So, "why does Rome have [priests] again?

Because of the Melchizedek prophecies, fulfilled in Christ; because of the necessity of offering Himself, the only "pure" sacrifice, among the nations (the gentiles), from the rising of the sun to its setting; fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi.

You're welcome! Glad to help.

[Elsie]

"And God has placed in the church

• first of all apostles,
• second prophets, third teachers,
• then miracles,
• then gifts of healing,
• of helping,
• of administration,
• and of different kinds of tongues.

 

And PRIESTS; too!!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Yes! You get it!

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