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To: ealgeone; Biggirl; ebb tide
Numbers 5:17
Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

A ritual to find out if somebody is faithful, and punish them if they are not, Interesting.

The most meaningful example to me from the OT --- an example of healing and cleansing through water which I make use of frequently in teaching--- is the example of Naaman the Syrian. I love this.

Before I tell this great episode, let me say that God has bound cleansing to the outward sign of the waters of Baptism, but He himself is not bound by His sacraments or His sacramentals.

In context, this is true of all His physical, material outward signs which He uses as signs of His power. We should not adopt an overly legalistic, mechanical, and isolating view of the sacraments. We are called to a life of "continual conversion," and God graciously gives us ways to do this through sacraments and sacramentals, which we OUGHT to do if we understand that we are called by God to do it! But God is ALWAYS free to act in our lives at any time, in any way He wants.

So here's Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5), wanting to be cleansed of the dread disease of leprosy.

He gets the impression from his wife's Hebrew slave girl that there is a prophet in Samaria who can help him. He is a great general, from the important and wealthy city of Damascus, and he carries a letter from the king asking for healing.

(I think it's cool that he first shows his "greatness" being humbled by being willing to take a little slave girl's advice. I'll get back to that point later.)

The king, it turns out, has no faith in the True God. He just says the equivalent of, "I can't cure leprosy. Are you trying to pick a fight with me? Are you trying to create a pretext for war?" He's not even thinking of asking God to work through him, an anointed king!

So Naaman journeys on down and encounters Elisha (sort of): actually Elisha did not come out at all. He only sent word to Naaman, “Go and wash in Jordan seven times and your leprosy will be cleansed."

Here's the pivotal scene:

But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the Name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.

But seeing as he's in desperate straits with the leprosy and all, he listens to his slaves' advice (again) and humbles himself in the eyes of all his armed cohort, and dips himself seven times in this second-rate Jewish Jordan, and --- you know the rest. A miracle. He is cleansed of his loathsome disease.

The point is, of course God could cure Naaman instantly. Or, working through the prophet Elisha, he could heal the man when Ellisa invokled His Holy Name. But! He wanted Naaman to be cured in a better way: in a way that would be definitely humbling, and yet wonderfully effective, and that would not only get rid of his disease but also bind him in a mysterious way to Israel.

Voila! God works through a secondary cause (Elisha) and even through a further-removed secondary cause (Jordan's holy water) to show that His power works anywhere, if you are humble enough to believe and accept His mysterious ways.

The Sacraments--- all of them --- are like that. God can wash us, confirm us, feed us, forgive us and all the rest, but He wants to do it in a way that binds us to the whole Body of Christ which is His Church.

If Naaman had said, "Heck with this, I'm a powerful military commander, I'll go call on the Name of God myself and skip this dumb water nonsense" --- too proud to go to a man who would prescribe a somewhat humbling, physical procedure -- what would have happened to him?

How does God deal with the proud?

40 posted on 08/24/2018 7:33:34 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Jesus, my Lord, my God, my All.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Numbers 5:17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

I'll continue to say it as long as the Lord allows me breath....context is your key to understanding the Scriptures.

This is the only place in the OT and NT where the term "holy water" is ever used. And, it is used for a specific purpose.

For the Roman Catholic to use eisegesis and attempt to make this a widespread belief in the New Testament is NOT supported by Scripture.....nor as previously shown, is it supported in Rome's "tradition".

Now, if the Roman Catholic wants to live under the Law, and it sure seems a lot of them do, there is nothing to stop them from doing so.

But if they're going to cite this one use for a specific purpose then they're going to have to be subject to ALL of the Law.....not just the parts they want.

Fortunately, the NT does not require us to live under the Law.

Nor do we see the use of holy water being used for what Rome is now using it for.

11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is [f]undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, 14 [g]if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, 15 the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as [h]an offering for her one-tenth of an [i]ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity. 16 ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the Lord, 17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and [j]he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall then have the woman stand before the Lord and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial [k]in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse. 19 The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be [l]immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse; 20 if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you” 21 (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh [m]waste away and your abdomen swell; 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your [n]stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh [o]waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.” Numbers 5:11-22 NASB

41 posted on 08/24/2018 8:02:36 AM PDT by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Before I tell this great episode, let me say that God has bound cleansing to the outward sign of the waters of Baptism, but He himself is not bound by His sacraments or His sacramentals.

God does not tell His people to do one thing and then He turn around and do something different. He is consistent.

HE DOES NOT CHANGE.....unlike Roman Catholicism which has, does, and will change.

For Roman Catholicism to argue otherwise displays an amazing lack of knowledge of the character of God.

42 posted on 08/24/2018 8:05:39 AM PDT by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
So here's Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5), wanting to be cleansed of the dread disease of leprosy.

And again, context is your key to understanding the Scriptures.

8It happened when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, “Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha. 10Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean.”

11But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’ 12“Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

13Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, “My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.

15When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, “Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now.” 16But he said, “As the LORD lives, before whom I stand, I will take nothing.” And he urged him to take it, but he refused. 17Naaman said, “If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules’ load of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering nor will he sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD. 18“In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter.” 19He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance. 2 Kings 5:8-19 NASB

It is the belief of the man of God that is what healed Naaman....not the water.

He was obedient to Elisha...the man of God.

And what was the overall purpose of this encounter?

15When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said,

“Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now.” 2 Kings 5:15 NASB

What we see in the NT with the Apostles are direct healings of people and the casting out of demons.....no "holy water" required....and why....because they are doing so through the name of Jesus Christ.

Again....if the Roman Catholic wants to live under the OT LAW they have to subject themselves to all of it.

43 posted on 08/24/2018 8:14:50 AM PDT by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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