[Catholic Caucus] RIP, Vatican II Catholicism (1962-2018)

One Peter Five ^ | October 9, 2018 | Peter Kwasniewski

[TradicalRC]

Are you under the impression that there was no infiltration of the Church hierarchy by Freemasons, communists and sodomites? Or is that too *conspiratorial* for you?

[stonehouse01]

“...vernacular...”

Definitely not a mixture the two! A hybrid mass does not work. The mass needs to said in Latin because the minute it goes into the vernacular the translators (on purpose) finesse the Latin to achieve a watered down version of the teachings and doctrine found in the original language.

[NorthMountain]

I think you recognize the truth of my statement. I thinbk you know that the list I asked for is the Empty Set.

And YES. TRC, the Church was assaulted and infiltrated by various malefactors. That doesn't mean all, or even most, of the enemies were foreign.

And simply being "Traditional Catholicism" DID NOT prevent the enemies foreign and domestic from doing their damage. As stated, EVERYONE at Vatican II was a product of "Traditional Catholicism". EVERYONE who initially implemented the "Spirit of Vaticn II" was a product of "Traditional Catholicism".

The "Oath Against Modernism" didn't stop them The 1960 (and earlier) prohibitions against sodomites in seminaries didn't stop them. Rerum Novarum didn't stop them.

Thus my point: Simply returning to "Traditional Catholicism" will NOT solve our problems. Our problems (and those who caused them) did just fine swimming along in the sea of "Traditional Catholicism".

The Church must make a specific, focused, concentrated, public effort to identify and eliminate the various malefactors from positions of authority. The Church must make a specific, focused, concentrated, public effort to identify postulants and seminarians who are malefactors, and reject them. The Church must do these things EFFECTIVELY, not just as a show or a set of meaningless unenforced documents.

These efforts were clearly NOT part of "Traditional Catholicism". They should have been. They must be part of Catholicism in the future.

[NKP_Vet]

Vatican II was loaded to the gills with Protestant theologians.

[NKP_Vet]

“Vatican II was loaded to the gills with Protestant theologians.”

EDIT: Vatican II was was loaded to the gills with Protestant “advisors.”

[ebb tide]

The Church has always had sinners, and She always will, beginning with Judas and Peter, who denied Christ three times. VC II and the Novus Ordo are beasts by themselves. They are the culmination of the sythesis of all heresies, modernism, as forewarned by Pope St. Pius X in PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS.

PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS

I'll repeat, VCII does not get a pass on the Church's problems today.

[ebb tide]

From Bergolio's Yute Sin-Nod:

We noted that a proclamation of chastity, as achievable and good for our young people, is missing from the document.

Synod2018: Young People Discussion Groups Offer Reports (Full Text)

[NorthMountain]

VCII does not get a pass

I NEVER SAID IT DID!!!!

QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

QUIT ATTRIBUTING MOTIVE (FALSELY) TO ME.

Now, read what I wrote. Every bit of it is true.

Simply going back to whatever it is that you feel to be "Traditional Catholicism" WILL NOT HELP, unless we also take serious, meaningful, effective steps to keep sodomites, heretics, and infidels OUT of the clergy and religious life.

PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS did not keep the sodomites, heretics, and infidels out of the clergy and religious orders.

[NorthMountain]

Please do not discuss non-Catholic groups on a caucus thread. I’d really like the thread to remain useful.

[ebb tide]

So you have resorted to shouting now?

Simply going back to whatever it is that you feel to be "Traditional Catholicism" WILL NOT HELP, unless we also take serious, meaningful, effective steps to keep sodomites, heretics, and infidels OUT of the clergy and religious life.

Are you kidding?

This is how "Traditional Catholicism" handled sodomite clergy:

Here’s how one saintly pope would clean up gay orgies at the Vatican

FYI: Pope St Pius V was what you call a "traditional Catholic".

[ebb tide]

Here’s how one saintly pope would clean up gay orgies at the Vatican

Working link.

[NorthMountain]

Are you kidding?

I'm dead serious. "Traditional Catholicism", if that's what you call what was practiced in the 19th and 20th Centuries before V-2, absolutely DID NOT keep the sodomites, heretics, and infidels out of the clergy and the orders. It most certainly DID NOT properly raise and educate the malefactors who committed Vatican II. That you have to go back to Pius V more or less proves my point.

[ebb tide]

Do you think the Church can ever keep sodomites out of the clergy? Despite the destruction of Sodom and, later, Pope St. Pius V’s mandate?

The article posted was titled, “RIP, Vatican II Catholicism (1962-2018)”.

What are your thoughts on Vatican II, itself? Can you stay on topic?

[NorthMountain]

If you want to stay on topic, don't go back five centuries. YOU brought up Pius V, not me.

We're talking about Vatican II, and necessarily the 2 or 3 generations that preceded it and PRODUCED it. You have yet to address the fact that Vatican II grew out of the "Traditional Catholicism" of the early-mid XX Century. You have yet to deal with the fact that all of the problems, and all of the troublemakers, that made Vatican II and came out of Vatican II, sprouted and grew in the "Traditional Catholicism" that preceded it. Vatican II DID NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

Do you think the Church can ever keep sodomites out of the clergy?

100%? Of course not. That's no excuse for covering up all the sodomites, heretics, and infidels. Find them and expel them. We MUST do a better job of priestly and religious formation, a better job of catechesis, a better job of adult theological education, than the "Traditional Catholicism" of the early-mid XX Century did. The educational disaster that followed Vatican II does not excuse the educational failures that preceded it. The two condemn each other; the latter produced the former.

[heterosupremacist]

https://www.gloria.tv/video/VF94PrnuJ9WY2VKP4fU2pMrLS

Regarding Michael J. Matt ~ he crafted an excellent video, I was very impressed. I viewed dozens of his videos over the years; this one however, should be included in his Top Five! Stellar, highly recommended.

[ebb tide]

The Holy Mass, codified by Pope St. Pius V, was in universal use until VC II. There are no “degrees” of traditional Catholicism, whether it was in the 1500’s or 1950’s.

After VC II, Paul VI suppressed that Mass and mandated Bugnini’s Mass.

What followed is not traditional Catholicism.

[NorthMountain]

That's all very well and good ... and irrelevant.

Bugnini’s Mass

Bugnini was raised, educated, ordained, further educated, and consecrated a bishop in "Traditional Catholicism".

Montini, who would become Paul VI, was raised, educated, ordained, further educated, and consecrated a bishop in "Traditional Catholicism".

You keep proving my point.

Thank you.

Vatican II did not happen in a vacuum.

[ebb tide]

Bugnini was raised, educated, ordained, further educated, and consecrated a bishop in "Traditional Catholicism".

So was the Catholic Augustinian, Fr. Martin Luther.

[NorthMountain]

Brother Martin didn't attend Vatican II.

We're talking about Vatican II.

Try staying on topic.

[NorthMountain]

In case you missed the point:

You're complaining about Paul VI, and Abp. Bugnini, and the "New Mass".

I reminded you of where Montini and Bugnini came from.

VATICAN II DID NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

The rot which exploded in Vatican II festered and suppurated in the "Traditional Catholicism" of the XIX and early-mid XX Centuries.

The "Traditional Catholicism" of the future, if it is to be any better than the "Traditional Catholicism" of the past that produced Vatican II, must learn from history. The first step is admitting that the history exists. I urge you to take that first step.