Posted on 03/12/2019 5:46:41 PM PDT by grumpa
Many Christians await the Second Coming in which Jesus restores all EARTHLY things to an idyllic world with no more sin, death, crying, or pain—from a literal reading of Isaiah 11:1-9; 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4. These Christians confront us preterists with this statement: “Jesus cannot have come yet because we still see sin, suffering, evil, and death all around us.” I think futurists need to be challenged on this biblically.
Concerning sin, the Bible says that Jesus appeared at his First Advent to put away/remove sin (Hebrews 9:26; cf. Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 1:21; John 1:29; Acts 5:31; Romans 6:1-14; Colossians 1:22; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 3:5; Revelation 1:5)—and to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). Did Jesus fail? Think about that for just a moment.
Jesus did not fail. He conquered the REIGN, that is, the POWER of sin over us, not the EXISTENCE of sin (Romans 6:6-22)! This was the promise all along from Isaiah and Revelation regarding the new covenant world of heaven and earth—and it has been fulfilled. Sin continues to exist in the new age (Matthew 12:31-32; Romans 3:10; 1 John 1:8-10; etc.), but it is no longer master over God’s people. Note that sin continues to exist in the world per Isaiah 65:20 and Revelation 22:14-15 even after the arrival of the New Heaven and New Earth of Isaiah 65-66 and Revelation 21.
Concerning death, the Bible says that Jesus destroyed/abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10; cf. Romans 6:23; Hebrews 2:14-15). Did He fail? Again, no.
The Last Enemy (spiritual death, condemnation, alienation, or separation from God), which is the result of sin's reign over us, has been conquered. We now have access to the presence of God (Hebrews 9). Even though we may still experience sin, it can no longer hold the true believer in its web. The objection to the ongoing nature of sin in this worldly life fails to understand the depth of man’s sin and what needed to be restored—our relationship to God. Believers have been RESTORED IN CHRIST through the cross (Romans 5:8-10; etc.) and Parousia (Luke 21:28; Hebrews 9:29; 1 Peter 1:3-9; etc).
Indeed, not only spiritual death, but also bodily death has been conquered. Jesus said, “If anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51) Jesus made several such statements as found in the book of John, including, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:26) Every Christian understands this on one level, so should not have to ask the question: Why do we see death all around us? Jesus assured the believer that he will never die. Physical death on this earth is but a step into the afterlife for the faithful believer.
In Acts 3:18-24, Peter speaks of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS:
“But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. . . . Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.” (NKJV)
Here Peter refers to the Second Coming as the time of restoration, which we have argued was in AD 70. The passage is reminiscent of the statement by Jesus in Luke 21:22 (cf. Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; 24:34), in which He said that all prophecy would be fulfilled in his generation. Peter confirms this time frame, placing these events specifically in his day—reinforcing what he just stated a few verses earlier in Acts chapter 2 about the last days being in his time.
Peter seems to be lumping together the First Coming and the Second Coming and applying them to his own time. This was the time of the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21)! If this seems impossible, perhaps you have had in your mind a concept of restoration that is not biblically accurate.
The word translated in some Bibles in this passage as “restoration” is translated passage as “restitution” in others, including Young’s Literal Translation. Restitution, defined as compensation for what was lost rather than returning what was lost, which better captures what happened in AD 70. Restitution is about justice! Verses 23-25 are clearly about justice and judgment. So, what some Christians consider to be the restoration of the planet, at least from this passage, is really about restitution in AD 70, when Jesus returned “in judgment” against Old Covenant Israel. Pastor Glenn Hill argues the case for past fulfillment thusly:
1. Since the "times of restitution” were prophesied by the prophets (Acts 3:24), and 2. Since their prophecies have all been fulfilled (Luke 21:22; Acts 3:24), 3. Then the prophesied “times of restitution” have been fulfilled too. 4. Since Jesus would return when “the times of restitution” arrived (Acts 3:21), 5. Then Jesus has come again too!
Will we return to a time on earth in which nobody sins? No. Does the physical creation need restoring? The answer, again, in our view, is NO. The physical creation was pronounced very good by God himself (Genesis 1:31)! What happened at the Fall was the emergence of mankind’s sin, and thus our separation from God (Isaiah 59:2). While it had ramifications about man’s life afterward and how he related to his surroundings, it was not about the decline of the physical creation.
Adam and Eve did not mess up God’s earth; they messed up their relationship with God. The physical creation was not corrupted by the fall of Adam and Eve, except perhaps in a figurative sense, and hence is not in need of restoration. (The Bible often describes spiritual things with real world images.) Thus, we are arguing that RESTORATIONISM—defined as a future return to an imagined pre-Fall utopian earthly world—is an interpretive error. Christianity explains history as a linear progression rather than the cyclical view of eastern religions.
So, just as the individual believer is a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), there is a present reality for the Christian that death has been abolished (John 11:25-26; 1 Corinthians 15:26, 55-57; 2 Timothy 1:10)! We do not “sorrow as others who have no hope” (1 Thessalonians 4:13). “No tears” refers to statements in the Bible about the long-awaited Messiah; Jesus has “borne our griefs and carried our sorrows” (Isaiah 53:4; cf. Isaiah 25:8; 35:10)! The Messianic promise of no more weeping of Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 is fulfilled in Jesus.
The kingdom of Christ is not a worldly kingdom, but rather a spiritual one (Luke 17:20-21; John 18:36). The hope of the believer is not in a restored earth, but rather in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:19; 2 Corinthians 5:1-10; Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:5; Titus 1:2).
For articles related to this topic, see the articles #B10 and #B11 about the New Heaven and New Earth at my website, also article #C4 “Completed Redemption” as well as article #C12 entitled “Salvation to Heaven after AD 70”:
https://prophecyquestions.com/2016/02/01/articles-by-charles-meek
Well said - and thanks! The first time I realized (during a study of Revelation) that all things had been accomplished through Jesus, I though to myself, “If this is true, then I have been fully restored to the position Adam had before the first sin.” And I remembered that God was looking forward to walking with him in the garden in the cool of the evening. So I said, “God, if this is really true, I’d like to walk with you right now . . .” This was a very bold thing to say, and I had not really thought it out. What I really wanted to know was if this was true - had I really been fully restored as the text suggested.
At once, I felt in the presence of God - or at least a fullness of the Spirit of God (who can really tell). And it was wonderful! I now had my answer, which for me was completely sufficient. After a while I said, “Thanks, I have my answer . , ,” but God wanted more time - He really LOVE this - just as he would have with Adam. So I lived in the moment. It time, it passed, but the impact on me did not pass. I now knew - with a certainty - the Jesus did not come to do part of the job of restitution - this has been completed! Hallelujah!
I truly am a new creature - now my task is to live each day as truly renewed, not just in name, but in substance. It is a task which will carry me into eternity.
I looked at your website and saw nothing about Israel. I was puzzled by this. How can a book about fulfilled prophecy not include Israel?
How does your system explain Isaiah 66:15ff “For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the Lord shall be many. “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord . “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord , on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord , just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord . And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord . “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord , so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord . “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Isaiah 66:15-24 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.66.15-24.ESV
What I actually asked was, in essence, “why no Israel in an exposition on fulfilled prophecy?” I didn’t see that in your answer.
But, since you asked, here’s my answer. Forgive me if I overdo it. You may find my answer utterly abhorrent. I don’t know.
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Verses 15, 16 and 18 actually seem to tell God’s people to take heart, because justice will be done; the enemies of God will ‘get theirs’. Meanwhile, it is also a reminder (among others) of God telling us that ‘vengeance is His, He will repay’. This helps us at times when we’d rather take the law into our own hands.
Verse 15 in particular reminds me of the Two Witnesses, one of which I surmise to be Elijah, in Revelation 11:3-6 (please read it and see why I think it is likely Elijah). We also cannot escape that Elijah was taken up ‘with fire, in a chariot, like a whirlwind’. Scriptures are used to prove and elucidate scriptures . See 2 Kings 2:8-11.
We saw a sample of the Lord’s anger in the first few verses of Isaiah 63, where He’s trampling out the grapes of His wrath. Elsewhere, read: Joel 3:1-5, 9-17; Ezekiel 7:2-9; Ezekiel 38:14-23; Ezekiel 39:2-8; Nahum 1:6; Revelation 14:14-20; Revelation 19:11-21; and 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
These are but a few of the verses that speak of God, in the last days, finishing up the business that began with original sin, i.e., Adam’s and Eve’s rebellion against Him after listening to the devil. This is why we needn’t worry when things seem to be going against us and the people of God. We know that God is being patient – just like He was, and is, with us!
Back to Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
These are metaphors for “It’ll be too late when He comes”, just like it was too late when the Flood arrived on the earth. The time to reconcile with him is now.
Matthew 24: 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
2 Peter 3: 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
And there are indications of the ministry of Elijah inherent in this passage. See 1 Kings 19:8-19; 2 Kings 2:1-18; 2 Kings 6:8-18; Malachi 4:1-6, and Mark 9:1-8.
1. The Lord will indeed judge, and violently; but presently, He speaks pleasantly, via the still, small voice.
2. We should never feel as if we are the only obedient ones; God has a considerable remnant, always; honor them.
3. The Rapture is highly foreshadowed in the snatching away of Elijah via whirlwind and chariot of fire.
4. The Rapture and return to earth is foreshadowed in the Mount of Transfiguration, in Mark 9.
5. The mantle that fell on Elisha is like the double portion to us in Matthew 28:18-20, empowered by Acts 1:8 .
66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
This is self-righteous Israel, then Judah, then you and me for that matter, thinking we are getting away with hypocrisy, like Adam and Eve after they had the forbidden fruit, acting as if nothing had happened, like Cain after he had killed Abel, acting like he had done nothing. This is us, presuming upon the patience of God.
It’s no coincidence that God invokes here the imagery of a garden and the “one tree”. The garden was a sacred place; the First Couple profaned it. The Temple was a sacred place; Israel and Judah and the pious Priests and Pharisees and scribes profaned it. Our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, and we profane it more often than we’d like to admit.
Lord, we are so sorry. Please forgive us and sanctify us and help us to improve continually.
God says here that He knows their works. He implies here that He knows our works, too. He says it again in Revelation, several times, in the Letters to the Churches. His omniscience obviously spans all eras, epochs and generations. We do well if we perpetually remind ourselves of His pain over our sin.
66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
This is quite mysterious; but the most coherent interpretation I have is that it is a prophecy of the Church. Tarshish, Pul, Lud, Tubal and Javan are all some of the places where the Gospel first took root. Almost concurrently with the big scattering that followed the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 came the spread of the Gospel, by the Apostles, who were Jews, going at first to Jews who had been dispersed just after Isaiah’s time, and then to “the nations” (Gentiles).
“And ‘they’ shall bring all your bretheren for an offering” – this speaks, if you understand the nature of “offerings” (i.e., that an offering was a representative amount, a “memorial” of what God had provided), of a remnant – once again, that word!
The “offering in a clean vessel” is a born-again Israelite or Jew who has been reached by the Gospel by the process described in v 19. As we know, born again people are all part of a “royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9). I believe these 3 verses also have layered interpretations relevant to present-age, Tribulational, and Millennial circumstances!
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And here, as befits the end of the greatest compilation of OT prophecies of them all (the book of Isaiah), we see Eternity invoked. It is hard to imagine, but think of it! This is the last dispensation, and it will last (and last, and last). It will be “new every morning”, like it says in Lamentations 3:23; “it will be joy unspeakable and full of glory”, like it says in 1 Peter 1:8; it will be “the glory that will be revealed in us”, like it says in Romans 8:18; it will be what “eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man”, like it says in Isaiah 64:4 and 1 Corinthians 2:9, it will be the epitome of “exceeding abundantly above all we can ask or think”, like it says in Ephesians 3:20.
All of that, and more, makes it sound like it will be endless fascination, transcending the greatest sights, sounds, tastes, and feelings we have ever known here on earth. Here He is offering it, to the Jew first!
God, through Isaiah, uses the concept of eternity to extend the duration of His love for Israel (the descendants of Jacob who stopped rebelling and embraced Christ, either in the Church Age or in the Tribulation), extending it even beyond the famous, more temporal, promises that “as long as the sun, moon and stars continue”, God would let Israel continue as a nation (Jeremiah 31:35-37). Here now, in v 22, He extends that promise even beyond the sun, moon and stars, or anything else we know of in this life.
Their “seed” and “name” remain. Foremost among the “seed” is the Son of God, Jesus Christ Himself!
In Isaiah 65-66 we see births, deaths, building of houses, and planting of vineyards. God’s enemies are destroyed, but regular human history continues. Note in chapter 66 that after Armageddon, there are people who never heard of God and the survivors are sent out to evangelize. It is impossible this is either heaven, or a literal millennium. Only the preterist view can explain this. This is about the destruction of Old Covenant Israel in AD 70. See my article here:
Preterism is the only eschatology that teeters on the edge based solely on the date of Revelation. Gentry's work has been shreaded to pieces ... and that long ago.
You know your theological method is in error when the answer to every question is "it all happened in 70 AD."
On the contrary, preterism deeply integrates the rest of scripture with Revelation. It could make a detailed argument for itself without ever referring to the book of Revelation.
One of the reasons I quoted Isaiah 66 was that it clearly describes the subject as the gathering of all of the nations to see God’s glory in judgment (v.18). The problem is that when it describes this for the rest of the chapter it’s clearly an era in which people who survive the “sign” have never heard of either God or the sign! The survivors have to go throughout the world to teach them of it (and evangelize them, which means sin and unbelief continue). Since all of the premillennial commentaries I’ve read assume that this chapter is about the second coming and subsequent millennium (though the passage claims to be about the New Heaven and New Earth), how can premillennial systems make sense of the fact that some people who survived the event had never heard of the “Second Coming”?
Sorry for not directly answering your question. I had limited time and thumb typing wouldn’t have made it easy to do so.
To a preterist, it’s a bit odd to hear the assertion that Israel wasn’t addressed in a long explanation, which the OP clearly was. The various fulfillments that were cited all dovetail into promises made to Israel. I presume, then, that you aren’t talking about Israel in the historical narrative of scripture, but instead the modern state of Israel. If that’s your question, the answer is that preterists (generally speaking) don’t think it has a role in eschatology. Curiously, Orthodox Jews and premillennialists used to think the same thing. The majority of Jews in 1900 were not Zionists, and mid-century Classical Dispensationalists were clear that they didn’t the modern state could be a fulfillment of anything because Israel was supposed to be regathered after repentance. In addition, the parameters of Dispensationalism precluded any fulfillment of prophecy during the church age. As far as I can tell, it’s only been since about the ‘67 war that Christians became obsessed with the potential eschatological significance of the state that currently exists.
Yes, per your assumption, I was referencing the modern state of Israel and its regathering in 1948. I have heard so many people who oppose dispensational thought say that it is only of recent vintage, as you were implying vis a vis interest in Israel only ramping up w/ the 1967 war. That is not really the case.
We both know that the hierarchy, the scholars, of Jesus’ time missed their “sign”, Who was standing in their midst right before their eyes, and speaking and doing exploits like no other, ever.
Similarly, it is my feeling that people who insist that the re-establishment of the Jewish state in 1948 is without eschatological significance are likewise missing the sign that is looking them squarely in the face. And, against all the odds and forces arrayed against them, they are being sustained, and flourishing, a la Amos 9:15.
In other words, I can see how the majority of students of the Bible may have had preterist or post- or amillennial views heretofore. But now that Israel is regathered, in accord with 66 specific OT prophecies that God intended to do it, I can’t for the life of me understand the continued insistence that it has no eschatological significance.
I don’t call it heresy. I just call it missing the opportunity to reconsider.
In mark9:1 Jesus said many of you standing here now will not taste of death until you see the kingdom of God coming with power.
On the day of Pentecost they saw it, we have been living in the kingdom of God for two thousand years but Jesus said we have to be born of the spirit to see it.
The only Christian tradition that I’m aware of that proposes that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy is dispensationalism. But, as the Classical Dispensationalism of the 20th century pointed out 50 years ago, no prophecy could be fulfilled between Pentacost and the rapture; the church age is not one of Israel, so Israel’s prophecies can’t be fulfilled during the church age. If what you are saying is true (that 66 Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled by the founding of the modern state of Israel) then by definition the church age has to be over already.
I expect you don’t mean to be saying this.
I abnegate your previous post by saying I’ve never believed that “no prophecies can be fulfilled in the church age”, nor do I know anyone who says that.
It is an axiom of dispensationalism theology that this is an Era free of prophecy fulfillment. Since the rapture could happen without warning at any moment in history from Pentecost forward, nothing needs to unfold before this happens. Indeed, since the remaining prophecies have only to do with Israel nothing CAN be fulfilled.
If you have another system of theology other than dispensationalism that would explain modern Israel I’d be interested to hear about it.
That’s a lot like the “search the scriptures; no prophet ariseth out of Nazareth” argument.
You are correct that, with respect to the rapture, no fulfillment NEEDS to occur prior. But, like Boaz’ reapers, God has thrown down handfuls on purpose. God didn’t NEED to bring Israel back before the Rapture; but He did. Nothing that I know of in dispensationalism precludes that.
The axiom you refer to is more about believing Christ could rapture the church at any time. He that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure. That is the principle of imminence.
The stunning fact is on the ground. For me, the argument is over. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, I guess.
If you don’t consider yourself a strict Dispensationalist then I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion. But if you consider yourself a Dispensationalist (especially of the mid-20th Century Classical type) you might want to do more reading on the topic. Your position is fundamentally deviant from Dispensationalist orthodoxy.
I think I should take up a new line of endeavor. I, a vehement non-preterist, should take up telling preterists what a REAL preterist should look like.
You’d have to grow up a preterist, become highly knowledgeable about it, then realize it’s wrong in order for the analogy to work. But I’ll leave you alone now.
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