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To: daniel1212
"mostly RC (even more so then the EO's) distinctive teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired...NT Church...

WHICH NT Church are you referring to here? The one of Apollos ? Paul, Cephas- OR Christ??- The NT Church did understand the fulfillment of the Jewish Sacrifice, the Priesthood serving God and Eucharistic devotion (documented of the Essenes) through OT Scripture - passing through from the Resurrection - Establishing in a form to go forward with... (Even establishing a Treasury !) You will not find perfect conformity anywhere- it does not exist... with man, it is impossible. But what you will find in the early Church writings of that time is the development of the Church- which would need man to pass it on. And that structure is found - still to this day - in the Mass. Do you find early Church beliefs anywhere else in today's world?

You keep trying to force this human nature, this man, into God's Kingdom he is building...Trad caths, Rad-Trads - Glad trads- ..Bergoglio.. Biden Pelosi- all of us flawed sinners do.not.define. the essence of the Church - nor it's mission. And unfortunately, Where you find God, you will ALSO find Evil... that is the existence we must navigate.

Your need is to turn to Bible study and scholarship (which you excel in, and find comfort in) just as the Jewish scholars did in leading up to Christ's time... And desire to make that the focus of your Faith path. It can't be, because eventually God's word will be usurped by man, as we find in the NT.(as modern Christian culture has perverted as well)

The Word does lead, "useful as a guide"- but it cannot accomplish - it cannot do God's will on its own. It cannot fulfill the commandments - That's the need of the Church, from it's beginning. It was not a whim of God to build this Church as he promised.

We need to be reminded all of this dies away with us, and must be passed on. But God's Kingdom does not stop being built - ever. I posted a sermon on this exact thing yesterday - no need to watch... It was God tells us in Ezekiel 17... He is building a Kingdom... The Babylonians tried, the Egyptians tried- the Romans, The Spanish, French, and British- Germany Russia America, China- ALL these Kingdoms have, and will die away- man's attempt to contravene God building his Kingdom is no match... only tower building.

Bad Popes- Good Popes... Man has been given responsibility- but the Holy Spirit will always be there... the rest will die away.. But The Church will always remain in the form necessary to bring, and keep, our souls, and others, to Christ in order that we may fully participate in his Kingdom.
As that is it's sole purpose of his Church- nothing else.
26 posted on 06/15/2021 10:46:30 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (“I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine”)
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To: MurphsLaw
"WHICH NT Church are you referring to here? The one of Apollos ? Paul, Cephas- OR Christ??-"

If you read what I said then it is the church of Jesus Christ as most clearly manifest in Acts thru Rev. where Catholic distinctives are not. Which is why the rest of your post attacks this only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed as being the supreme standard. And in which argumentation you employ a false dichotomy and confuse your church with the body of Christ which is the one true church and transcends your false church.

"- The NT Church did understand the fulfillment of the Jewish Sacrifice, the Priesthood serving God and Eucharistic devotion (documented of the Essenes) through OT Scripture -"

WRONG! The Catholic Eucharist - its doctrine and centrality of devotion is what is not what Scripture shows the NT church understood the OT Scripture as teaching.

"But what you will find in the early Church writings of that time is the development of the Church"

Meaning you must attempt to go outside the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed in order to read your foreign doctrine into it, relying on the uninspired words of men, however pious, which overall attest to progressive accretion of errors of men.

" And that structure is found - still to this day - in the Mass. Do you find early Church beliefs anywhere else in today's world?"

What? You define early Church beliefs as being distinctive Catholic beliefs based upon the uninspired words of certain men when the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed does not teach such. A mark of a cult.

"You keep trying to force this human nature, this man, into God's Kingdom he is building...Trad caths, Rad-Trads - Glad trads- ..Bergoglio.. Biden Pelosi- all of us flawed sinners do.not.define. the essence of the Church - nor it's mission. And unfortunately, Where you find God, you will ALSO find Evil... that is the existence we must navigate."

Your church is made up of members, and Rome manifestly counts such (except for some TradCaths) and thus you must own them. In contrast, as said, your false church has sadly become as the gates of Hell for multitudes. In contrast, the body of Christ, (Colossians 1:18) is the one true church to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.

The degree that a church retains and preaches the convicting gospel of grace, of salvation by grave thru heart-purifying, justifying faith, then they are part of the church which the Lord promised would overcome the gates of Hell, that being

"Your need is to turn to Bible study and scholarship (which you excel in, and find comfort in) just as the Jewish scholars did in leading up to Christ's time... And desire to make that the focus of your Faith path. It can't be, because eventually God's word will be usurped by man, as we find in the NT.(as modern Christian culture has perverted as well)"

What manner of misconstruance is this? Making Scripture the supreme standard is the opposite of what the Jewish leadership of Christ's time did, as instead, as with your leadership of old, they presumed a level of ensured veracity God did not provide them with, while Scripture provided the prophetic and epistemological foundation for the church, and the Lord and NT church established their Truth claims Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. And Scripture is what truth claims are to be examined by, as even those of the apostles were by noble Truth-loving souls. (Acts 17:11)

You should return that fallacious polemic to wherever you got it from.

"The Word does lead, "useful as a guide"- but it cannot accomplish - it cannot do God's will on its own. It cannot fulfill the commandments - That's the need of the Church, from it's beginning. It was not a whim of God to build this Church as he promised. "

A false either/or dichotomy. Not only is Scripture not simply "useful as a guide" (for not only is it "able to make thee wise unto salvation" but as wholly God-inspired it is supremely "profitable [ōphelimos] for doctrine" - as Godliness is profitable [ōphelimos] unto all things:" 1Ti 4:8 - "for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works), but the argument is that Scripture is the sure and supreme sufficient standard for Truth, not that it formally (not explicitly) provides all things, for SS holds that what it materially provides for (besides such necessities as reason) is the church, with its magisterial office ("it belongs to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same;" - The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646), CHAPTER XXXI)

But it is Scripture that even judges must be subject it. Thus you should also return that fallacious polemic to wherever you got it from.

"Bad Popes- Good Popes... Man has been given responsibility- but the Holy Spirit will always be there... the rest will die away.. But The Church will always remain in the form necessary to bring, and keep, our souls, and others, to Christ in order that we may fully participate in his Kingdom. As that is it's sole purpose of his Church- nothing else. "

The argument again is not that the organic church is superfluous, but that it is not the sure and supreme sufficient standard for Truth but must conform to it, as the Jewish leadership was to, but as with Rome, it presumed to think of itself far "above that which is written" which is contrary to what it says. (1 Co. 4:6) Even presuming to "infallibly" declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

Its over.

27 posted on 06/15/2021 5:42:46 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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