Posted on 10/27/2019 10:56:46 AM PDT by blackpacific
“Mary, on the other hand, definitely shows up.”
And so does thou shall worship and SERVE the Lord God only.
Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.
Exodus 23:25
25 And you shall serve the Lord your God, that I may bless your bread and your waters, and may take away sickness from the midst of thee.
Greek doulia equals Latin servitus (service)
Oh by the way bowing down is also considered as worship according to Jesus and satan.
Matthew 4:9
And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.
So tell me the difference.
rcc’s pray to Mary and their god
rcc’s bow to Mary and their god
rcc’s kneel to Mary and their god
rcc’s offer sacrifice to Mary and their god
rcc’s serve Mary and their god
rcc’s get grace from Mary and from their god
So through all the rc word games of “we only worship God” you do indeed offer service and worship to Mary therefore our Holy Lord and His Holy Word condemns this practice.
Repent of this abomination and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior accepting that you are saved by His glorious grace through faith in Him alone.
Amen
Another step downward in what was a church, a thousand years ago...
I support this assertion by reminding you that the Ark of the Covenant, Moses' bronze seraph serpent which was raised up on a pole, and the two images of cherubim in the Sanctuary of the Temple, were physical objects which were , venerated, incensed and bowed to -- not for idolatrous worship, but for God's greater glory.
In the OT, God's people also prostrated themselves in the direction of Jerusalem, and to the Temple. As well as to a variety of human beings ---- whom I will look and list if you wish, but it will be a long post.
I take that as interpretive of the First Commandment, and instructive for us even today. All of Scripture is good for teaching.
And another pope.
You mention people “venerating” the Ark and the bronze serpent of Moses.
You are incorrect.
The Ark contained the presence of God.
No one venerated the bronze serpent - except those who were slain for it.
So no. Neither proves your assertion FRiend.
You didn't mention these other examples. Do you agree that in the OT, God's people also prostrated themselves in the direction of Jerusalem, and to the Temple. As well as to a variety of human beings? ---- whom I will look up and list if you wish, but it will be a long post.
Afterwards, when they were giving the bronze serpent signs of honor without recognizing the healing power of the One True God -- that was idolatry. Which is forbidden.
The important point is: are the gestures of honor are "referred" (to God) through the physical person or thing which is being venerated? Or are they idolatrous (intended for some other spiritual entity, and not God)?
So the serpent episode helps distinguish between veneration which is praiseworthy, and idolatry which is condemned.
A really good example of this is with the episode concerning the healing of Naaman by Elisha. (2 Kings 5:1-19)
Naaman is cured of leprosy by dunking in the Jordan at Elisha's command. This is an example of God using a secondary cause, or rather two secondary causes: Elisha and the Jordan River. After the healing, Naaman ask permission to bring dirt from Israel --- as much as two mules can carry --- back to Syria.
Does he think the soil of Israel was medicinal? I don't think so.
Does he think it is magical? No, not that either.
He carries it with him as a sign which he venerated (honored) by bringing it back to Syria, because "there is no God in all the world, except in Israel."
This shows the difference between adoration (his acknowledgement of God) and veneration (his carrying soil with him as a "sign" of God's power.)
All of Scripture is good for teaching.
If you had read the full text of Bishop Schneider’s instruction, you would have seen this nugget:
“they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.” Second Council of Nicea
Yes, “Conservative Catholicism”, which is a form of papolatry, is being exposed by this Pontificate.
They will have to realize that following a Judas Pope in everything he does is not a good plan.
“ they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.” Second Council of Nicea”
Yes I did read this, but of course it remains a violation of all Scripture teaches of idolatry.
Additionally, no Apostle taught nor practiced such.
It was a pagan practice added to Catholicism, which was of pagan origin.
If history doesn’t matter and Scripture doesn’t matter, you’ve left Christianity for syncretic paganism.
“ If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Israelites venerated the Ark of the Covenant because it contained the presence of God, correct? So we are agreed on that.”
A THOUSAND TIMES NO!
They bowed to God Himself, Whose presence was in the ark.
He Himself was present.
“ But did they not treat His dwelling place (the Ark) with respect and honor?”
Because God was there. The honor, respect, and carefulness was His.
For instance: calling Mary "Blessed," as Scripture says, is an honor to God because of "the great things" He has done for her. That is veneration.
For instance: "honoring" your father and mother, as Scripture says, is an honor to God because He has commanded it, and because He is the Father "from whom every family n earth takes its name". That too is veneration.
For instance: (Lev 19:32) You are to rise in the presence of the elderly, honor the aged, and fear your God. I am the LORD. (Here God again explicitly commands outward signs of reverence for fellow human beings, in this case the elders.) Veneration.
Understanding that God is the source and summit of all things, far beyond the created Universe in supreme dignity: that is adoration.
Understanding that God commands us to give due respect, in due measure, to all: this is veneration.
This is a type or foreshadowing of how things are done --- properly, in due measure --- in heaven:
1 Kings 2:19
Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
Mrs. Don-o...
No Apostle “venerated” anything as a part of Christian practice.
If you believe so, please post chapter and verse.
As it is, you have seemingly begun with a belief in veneration and are attempting to categorize all you see as veneration.
No ark was “venerated”. God Himself, who was present in the ark, was worshipped and feared.
No snake was venerated. The people, watching others die, saved themselves from the same fate by obeying God and looking at the snake ***WHICH GOD COMMANDED THEM TO DO.***
When some took the bronze snake and made it an object of veneration, God killed them.
Oh, Catholicism has perverted Scripture itself, to suit what it brought from paganism.
Holy Men Of God Accepted the prostration of the people as an sign of Respect. It was never taken to mean a Sign of Supreme Worship due our Creator as Supreme Being.
Many people prostrated before the Lord's kings and prophets:
(1 Sam 25:23) Now when Abigail saw David, she hastened to dismount from the donkey, fell on her face before David, and bowed down to the ground.
(2 Sam 1:2) on the third day, behold, it happened that a man came from Saul's camp with his clothes torn and dust on his head. So it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the ground and prostrated himself.
(2 Sam 9:6) Now when Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, had come to David, he fell on his face and prostrated himself. Then David said, "Mephibosheth?" And he answered, "Here is your servant!"
(2 Sam 9:8) Then he bowed himself, and said, "What is your servant, that you should look upon such a dead dog as I?"
(2 Sam 14:4) And when the woman of Tekoa spoke to the king, she fell on her face to the ground and prostrated herself, and said, "Help, O king!"
(2 Sam 16:4) So the king said to Ziba, "Here, all that belongs to Mephibosheth is yours." And Ziba said, "I humbly bow before you, that I may find favor in your sight, my lord, O king!"
(2 Sam 19:18) Then a ferryboat went across to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. Now Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king when he had crossed the Jordan.
(1 Ki 1:16) And Bathsheba bowed and did homage to the king. Then the king said, "What is your wish?"
(1 Ki 1:31) Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and paid homage to the king, and said, "Let my lord King David live forever!"
(1 Ki 1:23) So they told the king, saying, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed down before the king with his face to the ground.
(2 Sam 24:20) Now Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming toward him. So Araunah went out and bowed before the king with his face to the ground. (2 Sam 18:28) And Ahimaaz called out and said to the king, "All is well!" Then he bowed down with his face to the earth before the king, and said, "Blessed be the LORD your God, who has delivered up the men who raised their hand against my lord the king!"
Daniel Accepted a King's Prostration
(Dan 2:46) Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, prostrate before Daniel, and commanded that they should present an offering and incense to him.
Elijah Accepted The Prostration Of The Military Captain
(2 Ki 1:13) Again, he sent a third captain of fifty with his fifty men. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and pleaded with him, and said to him: "Man of God, please let my life and the life of these fifty servants of yours be precious in your sight.
Also, Elijah Accepted Prostration From The Shonimite Woman
(2 Ki 4:37) So she went in, fell at his feet, and bowed to the ground; then she picked up her son and went out.
Solomon Prostrates To His Mother
(1 Ki 2:19) Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king's mother; so she sat at his right hand.
He also accepted prostration from Adoniah.
(1 Ki 1:53) So King Solomon sent them to bring him down from the altar. And he came and fell down before King Solomon; and Solomon said to him, "Go to your house."
Joseph Accepts His Brother's Prostration
(Gen 43:26) And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed down before him to the earth.
(Gen 44:14) So Judah and his brothers came to Joseph's house, and he was still there; and they fell before him on the ground.
(Gen 50:18) Then his brothers also went and fell down before his face, and they said, "Beh/b>old, we are your servants."
Joseph’s Brothers Prostrated Before Him in accordance to the Vision he received From God.
(Gen 37:7) "There we were, binding sheaves in the field. Then behold, my sheaf arose and also stood upright; and indeed your sheaves stood all around and bowed down to my sheaf."
(Gen 37:9-10) Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me."
Jacob Was Promised That Nations Will Prostrate Before Him
(Gen 27:29) Let peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, And let your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, And blessed be those who bless you!"
Also In The New Testament it Is A Clear Commandment By God
(Rev 3:9) "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie; indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
These words were uttered by Christ to the bishop of the Church of Philadelphia
I didn't want to be totally tedious with the length of this (though it could have been 5x as long) but I did want to emphasize the overwhelming evidence that God does not look at the external, He looks at the internal.
Throughout the Bible, people make gestures of obeisance to honorable people (priest, prophets, kings, queens, queen-mothers, husbands, fathers, elders, judges, plus angels) -- to places(the Sanctuary, the Temple, Jerusalem, Mt. Sinai), to things (the Ark, the tablets of the Law, Aaron's staff).
What I mean is, God does nor look at a gesture, like genuflection, kneeling, a nod, a bow, a bow from the waist (mitaniya) or even a prostration to the ground: He looks to the heart, to see how this gesture is intended, and what it means.
Is it adoration? Then if that is the intent, it is directed to Him.
Is it veneration? Then it is directed at some person associated with Him, for His sake. (As analogy, it is like courtesies directed to the First Lady. It is not because of anything she accomplished. It's a reflective honor, reflecting back on her husband, because she's the President's wife. No other reason.)
Is it respect, honor, acknowledgement of secular rank, civil courtesy? This is also commanded by God (Honor those to whom honor is due) and pleases Him if it is done in due measure.
“ Definition problem. You are conflating all levels of honor, respect, dignity, veneration, etc. as “adoration” to render it all forbidden. ”
Rather, you have predecided you should worship Mary, saints, bones, etc.
To justify this, you are wearing Veneration Glasses.
Everywhere you look, you see veneration.
A word used - veneration!
An act that looks familiar - veneration!
This is simply eisegesis - or wishogesis.
The fact is, every culture, every historical period, and every person with his temperament and his particular needs, questions, and experience, brings philosophical underpinnings, assumptions and biases which need to be carefully evaluated before you see all the dimensions of the sacred texts.
It's impossible to do that if you keep yourself stuck in a particular era and do not examine how the Holy Spirit has led the Church in her long pilgrimage through the centuries, the continents and the civilizations.
Or if you think the Holy Spirit curled up and took a good long snooze, waking just in time to script the Reformation.
This kind of study --- "How has the church understood this text? How have we lived it??" --- is the only way to get *past* the limitations of your own time and place.
This consideration of the whole history of the Spirit's leading of the church, is "the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age" ---G.K. Chesterton.
BTW, this is what the Modernist heretics do NOT do, which is why the "post-Catholic" clerics around Pope Francis are such flabbergastingly unreliable teachers.
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